120: Anna Vestlev Sandfeld | Why We Choose Unschooling

AUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPT

Cecilie Conrad: 0:10

Hi, welcome to the Self-Directed Podcast. We are with Anna. Anna has a very Danish name that I cannot say in English Anna Vestløv Sandfield. Anna's my cousin. Hi, yeah, hi. So I did the introduction for the Self-Directed Podcast.

Jesper Conrad: 0:28

For the first time in 120-something episodes, so I will jump into it. Anna, yeah, it's almost a leading question why did you become interested in unschooling and how did that come into your life? And I know that the answer might be due to us.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 0:47

Yeah, the introduction is sort of part of the explanation, because we're cousins and I've been taking care of your kids, cecilia, since I was picking up your oldest from kindergarten and coming in your house after each time you gave birth to fill up the dishwasher. So I've been part of your life and that is, of course, the way that I've been introduced to this sort of lifestyle, I think and, of course, following on the side as well. When you took off and journeyed a lot more than you did in the beginning, where you still had your house in Copenhagen, you planted a seed and then a lot of things happened.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 1:37

I became a mom seven years ago to our first child who didn't make it into the world, and you change as a person becoming a parent. But you change a lot becoming a parent to a child that you can't take home with you, and I think that rattled our foundation, me and my husband. And when we had our boy the year after, it was pretty quick that it was obvious to us that he is a very sensitive kid and as he got older it was also very apparent that he doesn't fit into like normal settings. And you're laughing because you know him, your soul, and his soul resonates with each other in a very specific way, but he is a very determined young guy and yeah, but, anna, it's still a very radical choice for many to take.

Jesper Conrad: 2:37

In Denmark the homeschooling movement has been growing during the last 15 years, but before that it was not common, and to take that choice is still a huge choice to take. Have you been in doubt back and forth? Have you considered maybe we should put him in school, see what happens? Maybe he needed to be molded to fit into the box. Maybe he didn't need to. What do you think?

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 3:05

I think we've had a lot of thoughts on this, me and my husband. Last year, when I was on maternity leave with our daughter our youngest daughter I had a feeling and I talked to my husband about it I was like it's so wrong inside of me to put him into this kindergarten. And it was a really good kindergarten we had. They were so good and they were not understaffed. They had like really nice building and outside areas and they had a bus going to the woods every three weeks and so on A really like ideal setting if you want your child to have a nice upbringing in an institution. But I could just feel like something was wrong inside of me. So it is a radical choice, but I think actually it was quite interesting.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 3:55

When I quit my job, which I had for 11 years and I loved my job, I was actually really happy and I had colleagues that I was very fond of. And when I had the reception, like saying goodbye to everyone, my boss said that I was someone who always did something without compromise, and that was interesting to hear. But I think it makes sense when I look back at some of the things that I've done. So, yeah, I think it just falls natural that if I want to do something a little bit different, I'm not taking him out of kindergarten for six months, I'm taking him out for good and I'm not just putting him in public school.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 4:36

If I'm putting him in a school, it will be an alternative school, but right now we feel like it makes more sense to have him at home. And if he's at home, why should I do school at home? It makes sense to us to do it that way, and whether we chose it or whether our son led us to that choice is hard to say. He's been a big part of it. It's so obvious for us that he will not fit into that box in any way. And you can't shape him, because that's not possible. Him, because that's not possible. He's not like a diamond in the rough, he's like a nature force and you can't shape a force of nature.

Cecilie Conrad: 5:24

That's beautiful, it's true. It really is true. Don't you think always, when we make choices small choices and big choices, small choices and big choices that it's always multifactorial might be the word in English mostly because of him, but it's also because the loss of your first child and it's also because of maybe you know me so well and you've seen my children grow up without school, so you're someone you're very close to, not me, but my kids. You were also very close with my kids and I think it's for me that would have been really nice to know when I didn't have to know someone, like really know them deeply and see how growing up without school is completely fine. What I'm saying is just it's it's actually many things that align to make this choice.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 6:17

Definitely, it is a lot of factors weaved into each other. And then, of course, in Denmark there was, a few years back, a writer who wrote a book that got a lot of public attention Eru Manifestel and I think that sort of sparked the initial okay, we're doing this. Actually, it set some emotions to work in me and I talked to you at that time and said that I'm feeling a lot of things, I need to talk to you, I think. And then we talked, and then we decided to try out taking him home after a vacation just for three weeks and see if it was terrible, if it was actually really nice.

Jesper Conrad: 6:59

One of the things I can have difficulties remembering is how big a choice it felt like. When I sit where I am today, I can look at the norm and what people consider normal and think they are weird. Why are they doing this? The box we are made to fit into. Either the box was bigger when I was a child or the box has never been big enough for humans. For me, it's a very weird construct the whole school, kindergarten, sending your kids away from yourself, putting them in a place to care of others while you go to another place to make money to pay for the care of your child, and there's this whole circle where today I'm weirded out by it. But I was where you were. I have been in a place where I found it weird that Cecilia wanted to leave our oldest daughter on this alternative school. I found it weird that Storm didn't want to go to school. So you, standing right there, have you started to feel your perspective of what normal is change?

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 8:07

I think it's very much a process. I think I started maybe a different place than you because I actually went to an alternative school myself, a free school like a very small school in Copenhagen 130 students all in all across eight years, so very close knit, and it had a Christian basis and so on. So I never went to public school. Actually, I don't have that experience. And I had in my first years actually a very happy school experience. I also had a really cool mom who was like strong and independent and a single mom, and I think she gave me more than I realized. You see it when you become a parent yourself.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 8:52

I think I'm actually also really inspired by my husband. His parents are both school teachers and taught the public school in the small Jutland village that he grew up in. But he is an entrepreneur and I see him as being really unschooled spirit, so to speak, inside. He tried for six months to have a job where he was paid and had to work seven hours and he was like, ah, I'm dying in this, and then he had to pursue his own thing and he has been doing that ever since. So I think that element has been in our life since we met each other because he's so driven to do his own thing and having no one else setting the limits, and that's been so inspiring for me and I think that's also pushed me to say, okay, I'm actually doing this.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 9:50

We're taking the kids out and nowhere, our youngest will not start daycare or anything. So in that perspective it's not been hard and I haven't felt that like a negative attention to it yet, because I think keeping them home during daycare years in denmark people are like, oh, okay, that makes sense if you can make the economy work, but when you get to school, that's where it's starting to. I can feel it already like the cracks appearing and people are like okay, but how will you make sure the social things and the grammar someone asked me about if they would the grammar, the grammar five.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 10:37

I think she was thinking about the long perspective. Yeah, still that like a concern, but right now we're just doing whatever our day is. It's so obvious for me that our son is learning like every day.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:53

I think we are curious about how it feels, but we might project a lot into it because it was different for us when we spoke about it, when you were about to decide it. It was easy that we know each other, but in this context of talking about how does it feel when you know someone that close, it's not that unnormal for you personally. So that helps, of course, and I think also you're right, you're just feeling the cracks. As they get slightly older, the pressure of what everyone else are doing can build. On the other hand, I know you have a quite powerful family and also the movement is growing in Denmark. People have heard about it before now, I think.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 11:38

There's also, I think, a beginning political worry about this movement because that book has gotten so much attention and she's been very vocal in the public space, that author so it's gotten a lot of attention and she's been very vocal in the public space, that author, so it's gotten a lot of attention and not necessarily in the best way. I think some politicians are really scared that now everyone will just quit their jobs and not contribute to the economy and society or something like that. And I know that I will give my son the best everyday life by doing this, I'm absolutely sure about that. I can get unsure in like little moments. I can get really angry with him because he's so strong-willed and it can be difficult. It's a really difficult choice.

Cecilie Conrad: 12:36

Oh yes. Yeah, and unschooling is harder than homeschooling, yeah.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 12:41

I think I have that element of. I don't know if I would really be bothered to do schooling at home, like planning and all of that. I would be too lazy to do that Because he just learns stuff and then you have something and it's really annoying. He has like an obsession with Paw Patrol and he will watch it like all day long if he can and I can get. Oh, why is he only sitting there with his face into the screen? And sometimes he just forgets to eat and he forgets to drink and it can be like so difficult to be in that situation. But then suddenly he switches over and he's okay, I'm just making like a lego building of the whole paw patrol universe and it just dawns on you that okay. So maybe it looks absurd that he delves into this one specific thing, but it's like you say a lot trust the process. It can be really hard.

Cecilie Conrad: 13:46

I want to make a little commercial break here and say the podcast, the Ladies Fixing the World I think it's season two, episode six is about repetition, where we actually talk about this for two hours straight. We could look to you like it's a waste of time, nothing. But who are you really to know that?

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 14:45

Yeah, I think it's a delicate balance that you have to find your own personal comfort in it, because of course, it's not nice for someone if they forget to eat when they're five years old. He needs food and he needs to drink water and he needs to go to the bathroom and so on. But I follow a lot of different Instagram profiles on also this sort of parenting approach where you are a lot more not so much like strict rules, but following the child. I think they call it like nordic parenting or. But anyways, there is like one lady in denmark specialized in willful I think it would be translated to willful or strong-willed children and she says okay, so if they have an obsession with iPads or screens, that's very normal.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 15:40

So if you want them to do something else, you just have to make that more interesting. You have to do the other thing. If you want to have them outside in the sun or the garden, then you have to see okay, if they are to do that, you must make that interesting enough that they are like okay, so I want to do that instead. So instead of setting the boundary and saying you can't watch this, you're saying I'm going outside, we're playing a game, we're drawing in the backyard. I'm inviting you to join us if you want to. Does it make sense? It?

Cecilie Conrad: 16:13

makes a lot of sense. Once there was a friend of mine who said more or less the same thing. So she took the iPads and all of the internet access basically away from her children because she said I can never compete with it. That exact battle is a battle I will never win, and that took me down the journeys that the listeners will know about and you know about. It took us down the journey where we just didn't do it. For four consecutive years there was no movies, no youtube, no gaming, nothing. We just didn't touch it.

Cecilie Conrad: 16:47

And that was one way and maybe it was good for the age my kids had at the time. But now, in my wisdom of my old years, I'd say that exact thing you're saying if you want them to do something else, you better make that more interesting. It's a good perspective, but then I have a little unschooler alarm going. So I want them to do. Yeah, what's up with that? I don't know what I think about this.

Cecilie Conrad: 17:19

I remember I asked Sandra Dodd that question about two years ago when we were at a beautiful beach. It literally had gold in the sand not gold, but it was sparkling, amazing and every day there were dolphins coming playing in the waves and one of my kids just wanted to game and I was like could we go for just a little walk and watch the dolphins? Can it really be true that I have to let go of this and say whatever you want, the rest of us are going for a barefoot walk in the golden sand with the dolphins I don't know Disney movie and one of them was like nah, I'd rather play Minecraft. And I asked Sandra and she said if that child would rather play Minecraft, maybe that child should just play Minecraft. I had a really hard time with that and I don't know what I think, but I think she's right.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 18:12

And I think that it's definitely one of the bigger issues. There's a lot of other issues that I think that we've let go of that other parents considering this type of path would be more like alarmed by or struggle with, like eating food. We just, I don't know. We're very like okay, whatever you eat, whatever you want. I'm saying now we have lunch and now I put food on the table and it would be really nice if you're joining us. Whatever you want to eat is up to you. If you don't want anything, that's fine.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 18:54

I always had children not waking up to you. If you don't want anything, that's fine. I always had children not waking up very early. My kids always sleep in. Also, when our oldest went to kindergarten, they would wake up at eight o'clock, which is really stressful if you want to get to work on time. So I think some of those elements we just skipped through really fast and every time we let go of some of those battles, it's easier, and I don't know how much of a choice it is and how much of a. Okay, this is just. I'm just. This is easier. He's really sensitive about his food. He can eat like oatmeal every day if he wants to, he will probably get the nutritions that that he needs, and I think that the things that are left that I'm struggling with is the screen thing, so that is also where my focus is but the screen thing is a real it's so difficult interesting revelation I had about it at one point.

Jesper Conrad: 20:02

It's based on one of our earlier episodes where we talked with a woman who they have created what they call the opt-out family. They have their family motto be more engaging than the algorithm Around this subject. About the gaming some of the things that had happened for me sometimes when I look at one of my kids sit in gaming is that I can be like, oh, I would rather they were doing something I would evaluate as being better in my world If they, for, were sitting reading a book, playing chess, being deeply interested in something, doing art, while I do not spend time with them. It would be better for me if they did something. I gave a higher value but I could also just spend time with them.

Jesper Conrad: 20:50

And that was hard for me to see that. Sometimes I'm like, oh, but I actually want to sit and work and I work from home, and right now I do not want to be together with my children because I'm sitting and working. So it's a choice. I prefer work over my children, but then I have an agenda for what they should be doing. But I could also make my choice different, and it's a little hard to see it like that sometimes, because I remember giving my kids iPads while I cook, because I was too stressed out coming home from work and couldn't sit down and be like, oh, now I need to engage them, and then cooking would just take longer time.

Jesper Conrad: 21:29

Yes, but it would also be family time, wonderful time. But sometimes you just don't have the energy. Sometimes you're just like, hey, here's the screen, let me make the food. There we go. And what provoked me about looking in this mirror is that I saw my own faults and where I wasn't in agreement with myself. Then I've forgiven myself and been more inclined to say to myself okay, if I'm actually not actively wanting to spend time together with my child right now, maybe I should not try to put down walls around what I think they should be doing.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 22:07

I have a lot of the same thoughts. I think sometimes, when we also get annoyed with behavior in others, it's a reflection of our own faults. I have a really bad habit of browsing through my phone and just jumping into social media and I can definitely see that when I have those days where I've been good at putting the phone away and just being present, the energy is so much better. And I think there is my husband is really good at that. He's so brilliant at just being present and it annoys me sometimes because he can be like he can just get them like out the door like this and they go have an adventure and go on a bike ride or something, and he doesn't have those struggles that I sometimes feel like have a long debate about whether or not we're going outside. But I think in the end it points back to my own behavior and they mirror that and if they don't feel like I'm present enough, they will act on that and that's definitely one of the things that I'm aware of.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 23:21

But it's so hard to break that habit. It's definitely. I think that's the big process for me is to have that presence and putting my own media stuff away and just dive into those interests that they have. And then there is, of course, the difficulty of having two children who are really different. One is definitely a homey man and then we have our girl, who is running out the door and finding the other kids in the area that we live in and just love being outside. And it's definitely a balance of how can you interact authentically with both kids where they are. If they're in two different places, like physically in two different places, I think it's more like an energy thing. If I am truly present and authentically, like aware and involved, the energy is better, no matter like how much video or whatever, so it can be a screen day, but if I'm involved and actively there, the energy is so much better.

Cecilie Conrad: 24:41

I've recently noticed. What was it? Maybe? In France in February, we were sitting around a big table, all six of us, all four kids, were there and the girls were doing some embroidery. I think it was around a big table, all six of us, all four kids were there, and Jesper and I and the girls were doing some embroidery, I think it was, and the boys were playing a video game and I don't know. You were probably working on some project and I don't know what I was doing. But then I took a picture of the girls and then I thought I want a picture of my girls who are embroidering.

Cecilie Conrad: 25:20

Apparently I don't want a picture of my boys who are playing a video game. I know they're having fun, they're on an adventure, they're doing what they want to do, they're passionate about it. They're doing it together, we're all sitting around the table together, so it's a nice cozy, cozy social situation. I can hear them laugh. But what is it about that picture that I don't want? Obviously, I took the picture and I did some inner work, but it's just interesting how it keeps going. We have this judgment and I think it's on a global scale and it really affects us, even though we can be very conscious about how you know. Conscious about how you know. Maybe you need seaport patrol 2 000 times before you're completely ready to recreate it in lego or whatever you're done processing when you need to process about it. What do we know?

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 26:07

I think you're absolutely right. If we remember back, it's like screens have been a part of society for a very short time historically, so I think we're still learning. What can it do for us and what can we use it for?

Cecilie Conrad: 26:21

There are many ways to look at these things and I just think at least we should stop and think when we make these judgments and I'm not saying it's easy, but we could let go of some of the idea of one sort of exploration is better than the other.

Jesper Conrad: 26:37

Then choosing this path? I hear it is based on you can almost say respecting your child more, at least the way you describe it. It sounds like it would have been disrespectful of him as a person to put him in a place where he doesn't fit in. Has this been opening to listen to who your child is as a person? Is it different than what you have thought parenting would be like? Did you have another idea of how you would parent until you got this unique, wonderful child in your hands?

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 27:17

Yeah, I think I had. I have a background in being like a scout leader of children for many years and that is a very structured. There is definitely an element of chaos in it and freedom. There is definitely an element of chaos in it and freedom. But you have to put eight children to sleep at the same time for a week and you have to have them ready for meals and so on. So there's like a structure that you have to follow and you're like, okay, that's working and I can put those eight children to sleep like this, eight children to sleep, like this and then you get this one child and he takes like three hours to get to bed and just what the hell is going on.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 28:00

So your view of how things are is rattled. I think when you have your own children and I know that it's not just me I have a really good friend who is actually a daycare worker and a really brilliant one. She's very authentically present when she works and she has children the same way. She can't get them to do stuff that she can get the children in her daycare to do. So I think that it's always different when you have your own, because they challenge you in a very different way than they do outside, partly because I think that when they're at home they're more themselves. They feel secure to do that I wouldn't call it rebellion, but they feel like they have the space to actually have their voice and their say. So they will open their mouth and they will say what they think, and we have children that have very strong opinions.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 29:01

Probably some families have children with less strong opinions, but mine. They have strong opinions and they say them out loud and I think it was quite obvious for us in the beginning of being parents that we wanted to listen respectfully to those opinions, because it's not like you're the child and I'm the boss. They're actual humans. Sometimes we can have opinions that is based on experience and I'm trying to like show the experience and sometimes I just don't give a crap about that. But I think the viewpoint of saying, oh, it's actually like a fully foreign person already in the womb, almost, that you have to create a really wholesome life, or like framework around, because I could feel I don't know about you, I could feel the difference in personality when they were inside my body, this is, it's so crazy when you haven't had that experience, I think, but I could definitely feel that they were different.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 30:19

So when they come out and they are so different, it's obvious that it's not just oh, you can just parent your way out of whatever. That is something you can hear sometimes. It's just about how you raise your children, that they don't want to dress in a certain way or eat in a certain way or whatever. But I definitely believe that they come out and they have that personality already and you can minimize the personality out showing itself or you can let it flourish. And I think that most people are inclined to just keeping it detained because it's so difficult. I think in a life where you have to be at work at a certain time and they have to go to kindergarten, they have to listen to or follow structure there and fitting into that model, it's easier if you detain that strong voice, but if you let it flourish, you also have to deal with it, but it will also show its beauty it's like spinning the wheel in two different directions.

Cecilie Conrad: 32:18

If you walk into the mainstream life and you take on the task of letting your children grow up in the school system, where of course there will be a dress code and there's a timing to it, you have to be there at a specific time of day, a specific number of days a year and the right things have to be in the backpack. All these things are very structured. It kind of creates a momentum of I'm going to have to control a lot of this and contain a lot of it and be in charge, and that makes a very unleveled relationship between the parent and the child. It becomes a lot of parenting as if it's a job, whereas if you take all of that away, all that structure, and you allow for a more free-flowing life, it's not necessary with all that control, and that gives space for a more leveled relationship between parent and child. I know on a global level that a lot of people would say all Danes have a very leveled relationship.

Cecilie Conrad: 33:16

That lady who wrote the Danish Way of Parenting. She wants to make the Danish childhood a UNESCO protected phenomena because it is different phenomena because it is different. So what I'm trying to do here is to just say that it can sometimes sound a little judgmental and a little bit. We're better and we know better and gold star for me and not for you situation. But obviously when you have this lifestyle and you've chosen to not use the school system and not school at home, then it's easier to unfold that leveled parental relationship and be in a more flowy and therefore respectful and balanced way of life. And my heart goes out a little bit to those who have chosen otherwise.

Jesper Conrad: 34:09

They are a little bit trapped in it and I understand why it has to be more controlled my heart goes out to the people who have chosen this way of life we have because, oh my god, giving them space to be who they are. It would sometimes be way easier if they could just shut up and do what we said and just get dressed out of the in the school. Leave me alone. Give space no, of course jokingly. Then it takes a lot of focus, a lot of space in the heart and a lot of time where I cannot see. It can be done very easily if you only have that limited amount of time that is available. If you have two parents going to work and coming home late, I know people can do it. I just have difficulty seeing where you find time for all those hours of talk, giving space, listening and all that.

Cecilie Conrad: 35:07

So that's where the coffee comes back into the conversation.

Jesper Conrad: 35:10

Yeah, definitely.

Cecilie Conrad: 35:13

Visit that one again. Sitting down with a cup of coffee being available for the children. Looks like chilling, but it's actually your job.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 35:24

Definitely, and I think we actually have a really good balance at home, because my husband does like a lot of chores at home, because I think there is definitely a difference in whether it's me, the mom, or him, the father, being at home, and we have a two-year-old who still breastfeeds and sometimes they just cling to me in a way that they will never do to him, and it's really nice just having the opportunity to to not running around trying to do all the chores all the time, because I think that is what some parents end up doing if they try it out.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 36:06

I think more people try, try to have the small ones at home between one and three years old. In Denmark that is the biggest group and then some people also have them home in the kindergarten years and then a few have them home in the school years. But if they have those years with small children and they at the same time run around doing all the chores, it doesn't feel like a meaningful day. I think Then you're just feeling like you did your job and you still didn't have time to interact with your child, because they're just sitting there playing with something and you're running around doing all this practical stuff and I think that is definitely part of why it I think it works is that division of labor at home is still something that we are very aware of.

Cecilie Conrad: 37:05

It's definitely like a lot of work for me to be just be with the kids yeah and this is the point I like to make that sometimes it can for the husbands or for the onlooker look like we're being lazy, you're just sitting around there with your coffee chatting, you spend all day in the sofa, kind of thing. But actually, if we don't do that, if we're not emotionally available, if we're not fully present, if we don't have extra time on our hands, then what when that horse hall patrol happens and lego has to come out and I also want to go on a day trip, and how about we make a cake? And you have 19 things going on that are on your to-do list and you're actually not available because you're in the middle of a lot of other stuff.

Cecilie Conrad: 37:58

It is actually part of the job to be, to just be there, to be emotionally and mentally available, and I just think, yeah, it's great that you, as a couple, can create space for that.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 38:13

I think knowing that is the goal and actually doing it is two different things. So I think we know that it's definitely better if I'm available, as you mentioned. I think that it's so much a process thing, this choice and doing it like this, and we have to find our own way in it and even though we're really close and we're family, we don't necessarily end up doing it exactly like you, and I think maybe if you're looking at it from outside, you could think that, okay, she's just doing the same thing, and I don't think that we just like doing the same thing and I don't think that we will necessarily do the same thing. We will do whatever our family will move towards. But it's difficult when you don't have the fact sheet, and that is definitely also something I think a lot of people are scared of.

Jesper Conrad: 39:05

And I love what you said about fact sheets because it makes me laugh and ponder and think about where I was when, earlier, I had this pad in front of us. The kids should go to school, cecilia should out have a career, all the things you're like. This is how life is, and then, when you take them out, you're starting to question yourself. And then, when you take them out, you're starting to question yourself. You're starting to evaluate a lot of stuff.

Jesper Conrad: 39:31

But what I find funny looking at it now is did I actually believe there was a fact sheet of how life would be if I had sent them to school? It is like when we take the responsibility home, take a larger responsibility than if we had sent them down the normal path, and part of me is considering if we, when we outsource the knowledge or outsource the schooling, the caregiving and these things, creating something we can blame if it doesn't go well like we want to. Where now, when you take them home, then you are the one who needs to be like oops, I screwed up, I could have been a better dad. It's quite fun that we have this distinction that oh, now I don't have a fact sheet, but I'm like we probably didn't know what the outcome would be, but we would have maybe been OK with the outcome because we considered it normal.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 40:27

I think I understand your point. I think it's also a matter of when it's something that everyone does, it's a lot easier to do it. I think there is and that's like a whole different talk, I think but the fact that we are not as closely involved in each other's families like everyday life anymore than like way back we would be, we would see what life was like in that family and that family, but now we're a lot more closed off units so it's easier to follow that narrative that society gives us and that narrative is daycare, kindergarten, school, high school, maybe university, if you're like, really the academic path and so on. But stopping and looking at it and saying, but what do I actually want to use my time on? Is really difficult and everything goes so fast and I think that, as you say, so many people are caught up in the life choices that they've made and doing something radically different is really hard.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 41:52

Radically different is really hard Having to not spend a lot of money on going on holidays or living in a big house or whatever. In some ways it's lucky that we didn't have a house that we had bought and had like a big loan and we lived in a rental, so it made it a lot easier to say, okay, we can cut down on our income, but it's scary. It's really scary, and you have to both look at the long perspective and think, okay, how long could we possibly do this? Do we have the money to do this for 10 years or one year or what? And if you can't see that the money is there, it's a lot harder, I think.

Cecilie Conrad: 42:33

I think you're right and I think a lot of people are caught up in the consequences of choices they made before and some are to an extent where even I, with my radical viewpoints, can see that, okay, this one's actually quite hard to get out of. But I personally, you lost your child and it was horrible and that was a very big part of some sort of change in your life. For me it was when I had cancer and when I survived that one I really felt I'm just never going to have a job again. I don't want that and I would actually rather live in my car than I would send my kids to school. And when I had that thought I'd rather live in my car.

Cecilie Conrad: 43:22

It was more or less just a car. It was a radical thought in my mind. I thought, okay, if I have to let go of my house to do this, if I have to choose between having my kids around me and doing this the way I feel is right, or having the house, because that's a real thing for me and for many of our listeners. It's a real thing when you choose to unschool that you might have to let go of your home. It's a real thing when you choose to unschool, that you might have to let go of your home. For me personally, I mean, I didn't do it to begin with for a long time, thanks to this wonderful man, we could stay there.

Cecilie Conrad: 43:58

But I did feel it deep in my heart that I would actually rather sleep in the back seat of my car and I think this I can't do it. You could do it, you're so lucky you could do it. I cannot do it because there's that and the other. At the end of the day, it's a question of priority, of working hard for it.

Cecilie Conrad: 44:19

I remember when we did an interview with a lady who unschooled her one child. But from the day she realized unschooling was an option a thing that lots of people, including myself, live a long life without knowing, you can actually just not put your kids in school From the day she realized, oh, I can do that to the day where she could actually do it, because she was a single mom and you're not selling your house in one day and maybe you don't even have a car to move into. But what she did was she sat down, she made a plan. So if I am to home educate my child, what would that take and how can I get there? Just every time this comes up, some people can't do it, some people are caught up, some people don't have the option. True and not true.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 45:09

I definitely agree. I think that in the end, everyone could choose to do it. I think there are two elements. There's the practical stuff, like economy and where do you live, and so if you have an expensive house and you have a lot of debt and that you have to maybe sell it and live differently. But there's also the inner you have to want to do it and you have to truly want to do it.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 45:34

I think some people are drawn towards the freedom aspect of it, but then maybe they try it in the early years of school, and I don't know, because I haven't done it yet. But my idea is that I think some people try it out and they still haven't committed 100% to doing it that way. And you need to do that as well, Because if you're not trusting that this is the right thing to do, your kids will not trust it to be the right thing for them and they will end up asking to go to school, maybe because they can sense that you actually think that maybe that would be better for them. So I think it's like a two parallel roads besides each other.

Cecilie Conrad: 46:29

And there's also the whole de-schooling process. If you only unschool for a year and it's a five-year-old whatever age actually the chances of arriving at a place where you've actually let go of the idea of specifics that the child will keep looking for, those curriculum-based kind of academics, does it look like academics, and for a long time? For all of the time it doesn't, and so a year is just not a long time enough. But I think maybe we should come back to the question of de-schooling in a year or two, anna, and then you can reflect on where you were today, in a year or two, anna, and then you can reflect on where you were today.

Jesper Conrad: 47:10

Anna, for people out there who are where you were some years ago, what would your best advice be to them?

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 47:19

I think I rely on something that we have talked a lot about, cecilia, is that you can always change your mind. It's not a choice and then you're like set in stone. You can choose to do this and if you feel like it's not the right thing to do tomorrow, you can change. You don't have to be fully committed to doing it forever, and maybe they can make it less scary because it becomes less radical, and I think a lot of people need it to be less radical. You can also start out by doing school at home if you think that is what you feel safe in. So, if you can find a place where you feel comfortable and then try it out, I can feel that I've already changed a lot. So, just like trust, trust the process and always return to what Gandalf says right, it's what we do with the time that is given to us.

Cecilie Conrad: 48:20

Yeah.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 48:20

And I think that's something I uphold very much when I get lonely or in doubt or whatever. I get lonely in this lifestyle because we don't have a lot of homeschoolers here where I live, but the time with my children are worth it.

Jesper Conrad: 48:36

I think Gandalf is a wonderful place to end the episode. Anna, thank you a lot for your time. It has been interesting to hear about your process. I know we have been part of it, but still it's fun to hear your reflections on it. So thanks a lot for your time and good luck on the journey.

Anna Vestlev Sandfeld: 48:54

Thank you, and you too.