Susan Yao | From Teacher to Unschooler

Autogenerated Transcript

145 - Susan Yao
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[00:00:00] Jesper Conrad: Today we are together with Susan Yao and [00:00:03] I found her on Substack, on Her [00:00:06] Substack. I think you came recommended by [00:00:09] Missy Willis. Let him go barefoot, who we [00:00:12] actually had on right before this , episode. , [00:00:15] So Susan, good to meet you.

[00:00:17] Susan Yao: [00:00:18] Thank you so much for having me. Nice to meet you [00:00:21] too.

[00:00:21] Jesper Conrad: I, would like to start by [00:00:24] asking, what is your background?

[00:00:25] Jesper Conrad: How did you end up [00:00:27] in the whole radical [00:00:30] education, homeschooling, [00:00:33] unschooling world? What happened in your [00:00:36] life?

[00:00:36] Susan Yao: Well, it's funny, my parents were [00:00:39] unintentionally unschooling, but I didn't know that until I [00:00:42] was on this journey. And so they grew up in China during [00:00:45] the cultural revolution, and schools were closed for a few [00:00:48] years.

[00:00:48] Susan Yao: And so everybody, it was like a [00:00:51] national unschooling experiment, not [00:00:54] really on purpose. That's just, um. So it's just funny [00:00:57] to think about that. I went to [00:01:00] traditional public schools in the United States, [00:01:03] Ohio, Kentucky, Illinois, Massachusetts. [00:01:06] And you know, I was always on a college [00:01:09] trek of, you know, I was supposed to get good [00:01:12] grades or take honors classes and stay [00:01:15] on a traditional path.

[00:01:16] Susan Yao: And, [00:01:18] um, I would say as a [00:01:21] student, my first. Self-directed project [00:01:24] was in high school. As a teenager I [00:01:27] started to feel like there are more important things than [00:01:30] getting good grades in school. And [00:01:33] it's dangerous, it's a dangerous thought, right?

[00:01:35] Cecilie Conrad: Go there, [00:01:36] you know, there's

[00:01:36] Susan Yao: no turning,

[00:01:37] Cecilie Conrad: taking the little [00:01:39] pill.

[00:01:39] Susan Yao: Hmm. Specifically, I, I cared a lot about [00:01:42] racism and that's what I wanted to spend my time on. I [00:01:45] was good at school, but I was not excited by my [00:01:48] classes. And so I dropped [00:01:51] science. And many students don't even know that you [00:01:54] can do that. You don't have to take. All the [00:01:57] subjects that you are supposed to take in school.

[00:01:59] Susan Yao: [00:02:00] So I had more free time to make a [00:02:03] documentary and I interviewed teachers and students [00:02:06] and that was a very meaningful project for [00:02:09] me as a student. And there was no credit, no [00:02:12] grade. The school did lend me a camera and [00:02:15] some editing equipment. Um, so they were [00:02:18] supportive in that way. Um, but that was my first [00:02:21] real taste of self-directed learning for myself.[00:02:24]

[00:02:24] Susan Yao: And eventually I [00:02:27] became a classroom teacher. I started out in a charter [00:02:30] school and, , I was in progressive private [00:02:33] schools and I became a [00:02:36] parent. And my husband and I, we had always been interested in [00:02:39] unschooling and homeschooling and I [00:02:42] couldn't really tell you why. Just that we had talked to other [00:02:45] people about it.

[00:02:46] Susan Yao: And so as we became [00:02:48] parents, it was always in the back of our mind. [00:02:51] Um, and we found this amazing Reggie Amelia [00:02:54] Forest preschool for the kids. And so we were [00:02:57] very happy to have them there while I [00:03:00] was working in the middle school of the same [00:03:03] school. And then it [00:03:06] was once our older child [00:03:09] hit kindergarten school, started to look more [00:03:12] traditional and we started to have questions.

[00:03:14] Susan Yao: And [00:03:15] for example, he was very afraid of making the [00:03:18] teacher angry. Even when he was at home outside of [00:03:21] school, he would be afraid. Of angering the [00:03:24] teacher to the point where sometimes he wouldn't follow my [00:03:27] directions because the teacher's authority was somehow [00:03:30] stronger or that fear was stronger. And also [00:03:33] seeing how he was as a learner.

[00:03:35] Susan Yao: He started to read [00:03:36] on his own at H four and, [00:03:39] um. I just thought school might [00:03:42] become too limiting for him [00:03:45] because he's always had very strong interests. [00:03:48] And he likes to have the time and space to follow his [00:03:51] own interests, do his own projects. And so we [00:03:54] started coming back to this idea of unschooling [00:03:57] and then COVID is what really pushed us, [00:04:00]

[00:04:00] Jesper Conrad: opened the

[00:04:00] Susan Yao: door to go for it.

[00:04:02] Susan Yao: Right. I mean, [00:04:03] it forced everybody to try [00:04:06] homeschooling and we had already been open to the [00:04:09] idea and we just found that it [00:04:12] worked well for us as a family. Um, [00:04:15] and I left working in a school full-time. Yeah. [00:04:18]

[00:04:18] Jesper Conrad: Susan, I need to go a little back [00:04:21] because as Westerner as I am [00:04:24] grown up in Denmark, I'm totally ignorant of [00:04:27] a lot of Chinese history.

[00:04:28] Jesper Conrad: The school were [00:04:30] closed in a period.

[00:04:32] Susan Yao: Isn't that [00:04:33] interesting? And I don't I'm no expert on Chinese

[00:04:35] Jesper Conrad: [00:04:36] history. History. They didn't listen in history, but I never caught on for [00:04:39] that to that earlier.

[00:04:40] Susan Yao: Isn't that interesting that an [00:04:42] entire country underwent this social [00:04:45] experiment? And I don't know if there are books about [00:04:48] schooling in particular.

[00:04:49] Susan Yao: The thinking [00:04:51] was you know, during the era of Mao and [00:04:54] Communism and the Little Red book that [00:04:57] schooling promotes elitism and [00:05:00] is one source of the problem. So let's close 'em [00:05:03] all.

[00:05:03] Jesper Conrad: How many years did

[00:05:04] Susan Yao: it go on? So it was, I think [00:05:06] infrastructure, you know, it was also chaotic [00:05:09] and that was also a reason.

[00:05:10] Susan Yao: But [00:05:12] schools, teachers, administrators, they were seen [00:05:15] as the enemies for a period of [00:05:18] time.

[00:05:18] Jesper Conrad: And,

[00:05:18] Cecilie Conrad: but there's the recall system [00:05:21] and it wasn't align with the ideas. It like [00:05:24] actually makes sense to close them. [00:05:27] Yeah.

[00:05:27] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. Even it's a little wild

[00:05:28] Cecilie Conrad: decision to, I wonder, I mean, we all have [00:05:30] to run now to our computers and look up if anyone [00:05:33] did any good studies on that.

[00:05:34] Jesper Conrad: Yeah,

[00:05:34] Susan Yao: maybe. [00:05:36] Yeah. I only have bits and pieces from my [00:05:39] parents. Um, I haven't looked into it, but I [00:05:42] am very curious about everybody else who. [00:05:45] Never mentions that they did not go to elementary [00:05:48] school.

[00:05:49] Cecilie Conrad: Oh, that's interesting.

[00:05:49] Susan Yao: Um, my parents are in their [00:05:51] sixties, so, you know, anybody around that [00:05:54] age maybe didn't go to elementary school or didn't [00:05:57] go to college.

[00:05:58] Susan Yao: Um, my father did [00:06:00] go to college because they had just reopened [00:06:03] college. Yeah. And now China has a pretty traditional school [00:06:06] system, so that's interesting to me too, that. [00:06:09] After closing all the schools, they went in this [00:06:12] very traditional direction, focused on test [00:06:15] taking and scores.

[00:06:16] Cecilie Conrad: It's, [00:06:18] as I understand it, not that I'm an expert, it's a very [00:06:21] elitist school system.

[00:06:23] Cecilie Conrad: The Chinese, [00:06:24] why not? It's,

[00:06:24] Susan Yao: I think they would say it's democratic in [00:06:27] that any child with a high enough score can [00:06:30] go to college. Yeah. And, and, [00:06:33] but the scoring

[00:06:33] Cecilie Conrad: itself,

[00:06:34] Susan Yao: so maybe that's the logic behind [00:06:36] the test system, but the actual result is [00:06:39] that, you know, children are [00:06:42] doing whatever extra tutoring they can and trying to memorize [00:06:45] as much as they can.

[00:06:46] Susan Yao: And it looks very traditional. [00:06:48]

[00:06:48] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. How is, [00:06:51] how is your experience starting with [00:06:54] taking your kids home? Retaking the [00:06:57] responsibility of your child [00:07:00] in what it will learn and not learn. How did that [00:07:03] feel? Was it terrifying?

[00:07:05] Susan Yao: Yes, [00:07:06] it was. It has really been a [00:07:09] journey up and down. And I know you've talked to some of your [00:07:12] other you know, the other unschooling parents about this.[00:07:15]

[00:07:15] Susan Yao: It really is emotional when [00:07:18] the, I think the kids were. [00:07:21] Maybe five and seven when we started [00:07:24] unschooling. And so when they're young, [00:07:27] nobody is too worried in the beginning, you know, [00:07:30] if reading, like I said, with my older child, he was [00:07:33] picking up reading on his own and, [00:07:36] he, he is a poster child for unschooling in some way.

[00:07:38] Susan Yao: [00:07:39] If, if you're coming from a schoolish background because [00:07:42] he'll just spontaneously say, I'm gonna write an essay about black [00:07:45] holes. And that's just what he naturally wants to do. [00:07:48] But, you know, obviously unschooling can go [00:07:51] so many different directions. Um, the goal is [00:07:54] not to go in a schoolish [00:07:57] direction necessarily.

[00:07:58] Susan Yao: But, uh. [00:08:00] It was, let's see, we were [00:08:03] homesteading at the time, so that felt very [00:08:06] right. The kids were learning to take care of animals and grow [00:08:09] vegetables and being outdoors was safer [00:08:12] anyways, during COVID, we would go on hikes a lot. And [00:08:15] so I think the early years. [00:08:18] Were great. And where I started [00:08:21] to worry is as they get older my younger [00:08:24] child has dyslexia and [00:08:27] so my main worry is not so much.[00:08:30]

[00:08:30] Susan Yao: I've heard so many stories of people who read [00:08:33] as teenagers and they are successful [00:08:36] adults. For me, I was worried that I was [00:08:39] not enough. That I could not [00:08:42] teach a dyslexic child how to read. Even [00:08:45] being an experienced classroom teacher, I was always middle [00:08:48] school, so I didn't know what early [00:08:51] literacy looked like or how I could support [00:08:54] her.

[00:08:54] Susan Yao: We met with a tutor and I [00:08:57] mainly wanted her to know that tutoring is an option [00:09:00] because you might need a reading teacher who's [00:09:03] an expert in dyslexia. So, we [00:09:06] met, there was, you know, as an informal meeting and [00:09:09] just getting to know her abilities. And, [00:09:12] um, meeting with that [00:09:15] tutor helped put me at ease because we had this [00:09:18] narrative that if.

[00:09:19] Susan Yao: We had kept our [00:09:21] child in school, she would have been reading already.

[00:09:23] Cecilie Conrad: Oh yeah.

[00:09:23] Susan Yao: [00:09:24] And the tutor said, probably [00:09:27] not. She has dyslexia, you know, very classic [00:09:30] profile. And were holding onto [00:09:33] the story that if you go to school, you learn the [00:09:36] skills you need. And if you're at home, [00:09:39] maybe you won't get what you need.

[00:09:40] Susan Yao: Maybe your parents are not enough. [00:09:42] And so. Letting [00:09:45] go of that story has been a journey, and I [00:09:48] think it would've been harder for me as a parent [00:09:51] to learn about dyslexia because I've been in those school [00:09:54] meetings where you have, you know, the serious [00:09:57] conference with a parent, I'm worried about your child.

[00:09:59] Susan Yao: They [00:10:00] need extra tutoring, they need testing. And [00:10:03] um, I think I would've resisted that, [00:10:06] but allowing her to [00:10:09] read at her own pace. Find the activities [00:10:12] that work for her. Those have affirmed [00:10:15] the unschooling path for me. For example, [00:10:18] she's a dyslexic child who [00:10:21] is not reading fluently, but can teach a [00:10:24] three-year-old letters, and that is so beautiful.

[00:10:26] Susan Yao: [00:10:27] No school, right? Would send a struggling [00:10:30] reader into a preschool classroom to teach letters, [00:10:33] but it's actually so good for her learning. [00:10:36] Because she needs that extra review and she loves [00:10:39] younger children. She has [00:10:42] pathways like that available as an unschooler. [00:10:45]

[00:10:45] Jesper Conrad: Yeah, sometimes I get sick [00:10:48] and tired of the word unschooling because it, [00:10:51] uh, can hold this connotation [00:10:54] of school is bad and, uh, [00:10:57] learning is bad.

[00:10:58] Jesper Conrad: And, uh, it right. [00:11:00] Education, be, be educated, be [00:11:03] interested is bad. And, and [00:11:06] unfortunately that's the word that has ended on this [00:11:09] philosophy, um, where I like self-directed learning. But [00:11:12] even that doesn't cover fully what it is that [00:11:15] I see unfold in many children, which is this [00:11:18]

[00:11:18] Susan Yao: right

[00:11:18] Jesper Conrad: personal learning journey [00:11:21] that happens when they are ready, that they have [00:11:24] time to.

[00:11:25] Jesper Conrad: Learn in their own [00:11:27] pace and not being judged on being an, [00:11:30] in, being a group that needs to [00:11:33] learn everything at the same time. And [00:11:36] that is one of the joys I see with having them at home and [00:11:39] having this more unschooled, less [00:11:42] curriculum outcome based [00:11:45] focus that , we let them travel in the direction [00:11:48] where and when they're ready it comes.

[00:11:50] Cecilie Conrad: I [00:11:51] feel like we talk way too much about learning. I don't know. [00:11:54] It can just be that [00:11:57] we are explaining to [00:12:00] some imaginary listener what [00:12:03] they're learning when they're not in school, because most people [00:12:06] cannot think out of that box. Fairly [00:12:09] so, because most people are in that box and you don't see a [00:12:12] lot of kids who have never been to school and , you combine the idea of [00:12:15] childhood, of growing from being five to [00:12:18] 15 with school, that school is somewhat needed, but [00:12:21] actually unschooling is about [00:12:24] that. It's not needed, but it's also, [00:12:27] about the fact that it's not about learning. Growing up from [00:12:30] five to 15 is not about learning. We learn all through [00:12:33] life, all humans do. And [00:12:36] unschooling is not about [00:12:39] a different way of learning, it's a different [00:12:42] way of living. Mm-hmm. And it's based on a [00:12:45] different philosophy. It has a different value [00:12:48] system. And the learning it's [00:12:51] so hard to get around it, so we keep talking about it. And I [00:12:54] think we're doing so in this conversation [00:12:57] because we're used to talking a lot about learning [00:13:00] because we're used to defending ourselves, and I just wanted to [00:13:03] say that in many ways, unschooling is [00:13:06] not about what they're learning.

[00:13:07] Cecilie Conrad: That can be such a [00:13:09] provocative statement, but actually the [00:13:12] backbone of it is something else.

[00:13:13] Susan Yao: As humans, we're [00:13:15] hardwired to learn, right? And it's [00:13:18] amazing.

[00:13:18] Susan Yao: We've created institutions where we put children and they [00:13:21] say, oh, I learned nothing today. And they think that learning is only [00:13:24] sitting at a desk with an adult directed [00:13:27] activity. And everything else is not learning, but [00:13:30] we, I think learning is in the background all the [00:13:33] time as humans. So I understand what you're [00:13:36] saying.

[00:13:36] Cecilie Conrad: About lifestyle at the [00:13:39] moment. And some of them are doing more formal education at this point [00:13:42] because they're working to get into university. It's unschool, [00:13:45] teenagers and some of them are not, which is totally fine. [00:13:48] But then they say this, oh, I'm doing nothing. [00:13:51] It's a little bit like you're unschooled.

[00:13:53] Cecilie Conrad: [00:13:54] You're 16, you haven't been doing nothing up to [00:13:57] now, right? You're still not doing nothing. You're [00:14:00] not doing formal schooling, but that doesn't mean that you're [00:14:03] doing nothing. But lots of the [00:14:06] things they do are considered [00:14:09] nothing by the mainstream [00:14:12] way of thinking about childhood. And I think I just, we need [00:14:15] to push back against that idea because it's [00:14:18] not nothing.

[00:14:19] Cecilie Conrad: There's a lot of things happening, a lot [00:14:21] of growing, a lot of tempering of [00:14:24] emotion, a lot of thought experiments, a lot [00:14:27] of contemplating, a lot of observation, a [00:14:30] lot of emotional peace. [00:14:33] Arriving at emotional peace from points of not [00:14:36] having peace, which is a learning journey. [00:14:39] Know a journey, a skill. Actually, that's a [00:14:42] skill that I find in many adults they don't have it, [00:14:45] but mm-hmm.

[00:14:46] Cecilie Conrad: If you have the time to work on that. [00:14:48] As a child and a young person, then you mm-hmm [00:14:51] enter the stage of adult life with a [00:14:54] completely different ability to [00:14:57] cope with whatever. And there's a [00:15:00] lot of whatever happening in adult life. But we, [00:15:03] we hardly have words for these skill. Uh, even I'm [00:15:06] struggling now.

[00:15:06] Cecilie Conrad: I've been talking about unschooling for more than 10 years, and I'm still [00:15:09] struggling talking about these things. Call it [00:15:12] life skills. And it sounds like being able to turn on the washing [00:15:15] machine, that's not what I'm talking about.

[00:15:16] Susan Yao: That's important too. Yeah. [00:15:18]

[00:15:18] Cecilie Conrad: But that you can take that box in [00:15:21] half an hour, then they know how to do that, you [00:15:24] know?

[00:15:24] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah, [00:15:27] yeah.

[00:15:27] Cecilie Conrad: But of course there is the reading [00:15:30] too.

[00:15:30] Jesper Conrad: Yes. Susan, [00:15:33] how old are your children now?

[00:15:35] Susan Yao: They [00:15:36] are nine and 11 years old.

[00:15:38] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah, [00:15:39] it's a different ball.

[00:15:40] Jesper Conrad: It's a fun different [00:15:42] place to be. Ours are soon [00:15:45] 14, 17, and one , is [00:15:48] turning 20

[00:15:48]

[00:15:48] Jesper Conrad: And 26. There [00:15:51] comes at some point this, oh, [00:15:54] what do they want later in life?

[00:15:55] Jesper Conrad: Do they wanna go [00:15:57] into something formal education? Can [00:16:00] they do that?

[00:16:00] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:01] Jesper Conrad: And it's, um, [00:16:03] quite interesting because [00:16:06] it seems to me that comes this, [00:16:09] wanting to use their brain in a different way [00:16:12] when they get older, where there's a lot of play [00:16:15] energy in the younger years. Then the play [00:16:18] energy for some years turns into a lot of chatting, [00:16:21] talking with their friends, and then at some point [00:16:24] there's this, ah, it wants to be used more to [00:16:27] brain,

[00:16:27] Cecilie Conrad: it wants to be used in a different way.

[00:16:29] Jesper Conrad: [00:16:30] Indeed. But what is your focus [00:16:33] on your journey? You stopped [00:16:36] teaching and now you are stay at home [00:16:39] unschooling, homeschooling mom,

[00:16:41] Susan Yao: we [00:16:42] have a learning community.

[00:16:43] Susan Yao: Wow,

[00:16:43] Jesper Conrad: nice. [00:16:45]

[00:16:45] Susan Yao: So we call it the Vermont Village School. It is [00:16:48] three days a week, and I think of it like structure [00:16:51] for unschoolers. It's a little bit different from a [00:16:54] self-directed center. Some of them are like buffets where [00:16:57] you can work on whatever you want all day. And [00:17:00] so ours is maybe because our group is so small [00:17:03] or that's just the personality of the kids, they [00:17:06] want to do things together.

[00:17:08] Susan Yao: And we found that [00:17:09] at. Age eight. Many unschoolers are [00:17:12] wanting that learning community. And [00:17:15] so we are out in the village, um, you know, we're doing [00:17:18] field trips together or we have people come to us and share [00:17:21] what they know. Next week we're going to a sewing [00:17:24] studio, for example. We volunteer [00:17:27] at, local organizations.

[00:17:28] Susan Yao: So we [00:17:30] have that. And then I still consider myself a [00:17:33] full-time educator, even though it looks very different than it [00:17:36] used to. Um, and it's much healthier for me, [00:17:39] this lifestyle of having this three day [00:17:42] a week learning community. And then I do a [00:17:45] little bit of consulting as well for income. [00:17:48]

[00:17:48] Jesper Conrad: Yeah.

[00:17:49] Jesper Conrad: How did your, um, life [00:17:51] stress change from being full-time work to [00:17:54] work at home Mom? Because it is a [00:17:57] shift, I feel, to go from working in an office [00:18:00] or in, in a place leaving the house every day to [00:18:03] come home.

[00:18:04] Susan Yao: It was [00:18:06] terrifying. I had a structured [00:18:09] schedule pretty much my whole life because school is so many hours.[00:18:12]

[00:18:12] Susan Yao: Per week, and then they assign homework. [00:18:15] So that dictates your time outside of school. [00:18:18] And then I had always worked in a [00:18:21] full-time school, which is, 50 to 70 [00:18:24] hours a week. And it is [00:18:27] all consuming and exhausting. I think many [00:18:30] educators are burning out right now. And so [00:18:33] for me it's, it's liberating, but it takes [00:18:36] time to get over that fear and really enjoy [00:18:39] it.

[00:18:39] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah, the fear. Do you [00:18:42] wanna talk about the fear?

[00:18:44] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. I, I [00:18:45] still find it interesting with the whole fear [00:18:48] of how to fit into life as [00:18:51] an adult that. The fear that comes [00:18:54] with freedom, maybe I would call it. [00:18:57] Um, I remember it when I finished high [00:19:00] school, uh, I was 18 and where some people take [00:19:03] one gap year, I took six.

[00:19:05] Jesper Conrad: But this, [00:19:06] that life is a buffet where you can choose what you [00:19:09] want and figure out which direction you wanna go in. [00:19:12] Right. Then all then it was kind of nice to [00:19:15] get that closed down by just going to work, uh, [00:19:18] every, every day and have weekends and that structure [00:19:21] where you don't need to consider what you want to do with your [00:19:24] life and then

[00:19:24] Jesper Conrad: Freeing up more [00:19:27] mental time. And of course you're [00:19:30] not, um, as a mother at home, there's a [00:19:33] lot of work. That's not what I'm saying. It's, [00:19:36] it is just, uh. And [00:19:39] non-traditional path for many, even though if we look [00:19:42] back, it was the traditional path for most of humanity, [00:19:45] right? So, so to be in a place where [00:19:48] it's like, what do I wanna do today?

[00:19:49] Jesper Conrad: That is a little [00:19:51] scary for me still sometimes.

[00:19:53] Cecilie Conrad: And that's [00:19:54] actually what I talked about before. One of the [00:19:57] skills they get from being unschooled that [00:20:00] they learn during childhood, growing [00:20:03] into the personality that. Of course keep [00:20:06] evolving, but also be the backbone of their life. [00:20:09] They learn to make decisions.

[00:20:11] Cecilie Conrad: They learn to [00:20:12] figure out how do I create a good day for myself? What actually [00:20:15] keeps me happy and, and keeps me on track with [00:20:18] my values? And so they don't [00:20:21] need that external structure to tell [00:20:24] them what to do to be good enough.

[00:20:26] Susan Yao: [00:20:27] Mm-hmm. My college [00:20:30] classmates, many of them were lost because they had been so [00:20:33] focused on getting into college.

[00:20:34] Susan Yao: And then when they [00:20:36] arrived, they didn't have [00:20:39] right that external goal anymore. And so they [00:20:42] would fall apart or find the next [00:20:45] something to climb. So for [00:20:48] many of them it was, um, a corporate job. [00:20:51] And whatever was supposedly the most [00:20:54] popular company or the highest paying [00:20:57] company, and they would just go for that just because [00:21:00] everybody else was choosing that.

[00:21:01] Susan Yao: And so they, [00:21:03] they really did not know how to have their own direction or [00:21:06] organize their own time. And so [00:21:09] that was definitely new for me too when [00:21:12] I, um, left full-time work. [00:21:15]

[00:21:15] Jesper Conrad: I would like to hear about your [00:21:18] documentary on racism. Uh, you did back then. [00:21:21] With the angle that we had [00:21:24] a Chinese immigrant daughter [00:21:27] on the podcast earlier who had written a book called [00:21:30] On Tiger, um, where she [00:21:33] told about that many [00:21:36] Chinese uh, immigrants ended up being really [00:21:39] strict because they wanted their children to [00:21:42] succeed and show that they could succeed in the American [00:21:45] society.

[00:21:46] Jesper Conrad: It seems to me that either you have [00:21:48] had a different upbringing with less [00:21:51] Tigga mom style from your parents [00:21:54] or, and if not, then there must maybe have [00:21:57] been a, how would they have taken you [00:22:00] deciding to unschool and homeschool? I'm like, how did that [00:22:03] go? Right? Know it's three questions. That's three [00:22:06] questions.

[00:22:06] Jesper Conrad: Yes.

[00:22:06] Cecilie Conrad: Very different questions.

[00:22:08] Jesper Conrad: Oh, yes. [00:22:09]

[00:22:09] Susan Yao: I'll try to answer them all. [00:22:12] I am. [00:22:15] Wary of describing, [00:22:18] huge groups of people as all parenting one way. I [00:22:21] don't think that's true. I'm sure there are [00:22:24] some trends, but it's complicated. [00:22:27] Right? So the trend is a mix of, [00:22:30] you know, is it Chinese culture? Is it.[00:22:33]

[00:22:33] Susan Yao: Immigrants, is it this generation [00:22:36] trauma that our parents went through? [00:22:39] Um, is it racism in the United States pushing you in [00:22:42] a certain direction? You know, I think [00:22:45] many factors make a trend. So, I would say my [00:22:48] parents, no, they're not tiger parents. So much of it [00:22:51] came from me and they were certainly happy that I [00:22:54] wanted to go to college and be on a [00:22:57] traditional path.

[00:22:57] Susan Yao: But unschooling definitely made [00:23:00] them nervous. And like I said, when the kids were [00:23:03] young, when they're preschool age, nobody is [00:23:06] too worried. But as they get older you know, and [00:23:09] noticing the, you [00:23:12] know, the like late reader was definitely [00:23:15] one cause for concern. But [00:23:18] I think for the most part [00:23:21] they're supportive [00:23:24] or you know, they might have [00:23:27] fears, but they're not constantly arguing with us. I've heard some [00:23:30] real horror stories from people who [00:23:33] homeschool or unschool where they have conflict, you know, a lot of [00:23:36] conflict with their family. So we've been lucky in that.

[00:23:38] Susan Yao: We haven't [00:23:39] had much of that, but there is definitely [00:23:42] some worry. That we try to [00:23:45] keep at bay.

[00:23:46] Susan Yao: And I honestly [00:23:48] think, grandparents might worry no matter what. Right. Even if the kids [00:23:51] were in school, then they're worried about this teacher, [00:23:54] or you know, they're worried about my brother getting [00:23:57] married and they'll find something to worry about.

[00:23:59] Susan Yao: It [00:24:00] doesn't mean you need to stop what you're doing.

[00:24:02] Jesper Conrad: And the [00:24:03] racism project, what was it about? And based on. [00:24:06]

[00:24:07] Susan Yao: That was in high [00:24:09] school I had dealt with racism as a young [00:24:12] child. And I [00:24:15] had a lot of anger about it, but I hadn't [00:24:18] processed it. And so in high school I [00:24:21] went to a conference of Asian American [00:24:24] teenagers, and that's the first time I learned more about [00:24:27] the history of Asian Americans in the United [00:24:30] States and the, you know, the [00:24:33] racism and struggles we had [00:24:36] faced.

[00:24:37] Susan Yao: And I met Asian [00:24:39] Americans who were activists who were positive [00:24:42] change agents in their communities, and I found that very [00:24:45] inspiring. And so for the first time, I had [00:24:48] examples of channeling my anger in healthy [00:24:51] ways and just trying [00:24:54] to, you know, make it a better place for everyone. And [00:24:57] so that's when I, [00:25:00] I decided there were, there was something more important [00:25:03] than getting good grades. And I pursued this [00:25:06] project on my own. I don't remember why I [00:25:09] chose documentary, [00:25:12] but there was a filmmaker at that conference and [00:25:15] maybe, maybe that's what gave me the idea. [00:25:18] Um, but that conference was definitely life [00:25:21] changing for me.

[00:25:22] Susan Yao: I just hadn't thought as a [00:25:24] teenager. Right. I could. Make change in my [00:25:27] community and find the time and resources to do [00:25:30] it. And you, you'd think schools would [00:25:33] help you do that?

[00:25:34] Cecilie Conrad: I don't know what I [00:25:36] think, it's a very oppressive [00:25:39] mainstream.

[00:25:40] Cecilie Conrad: Way of thinking about what [00:25:42] young people need.

[00:25:44] Cecilie Conrad: But I mean, we're [00:25:45] more than 10 years ahead of you in a way [00:25:48] because our kids are so much older. Right. So we're in a different [00:25:51] space and when I look back [00:25:54] at when my kids were nine and [00:25:57] 11 and other, but younger. [00:26:00] Now when I see younger children I'm [00:26:03] really just thinking, oh, leave them be, just [00:26:06] leave them alone.

[00:26:07] Cecilie Conrad: It's really [00:26:09] interesting. I remember my own stress and how I thought I had to do all [00:26:12] kinds of things, and of course you have to do all kinds of things. Take them [00:26:15] on day trips, and you cook them [00:26:18] meals and have conversations and all these things. But really when they [00:26:21] are that young, the whole idea of.[00:26:24]

[00:26:25] Cecilie Conrad: Academically schooling [00:26:27] them from a top down point of view. [00:26:30] Mm-hmm. Even worrying about whether they read or not. We [00:26:33] have one outta four who was a very late reader. [00:26:36] Even that from my point of view now is [00:26:39] just, oh, that was such a waste of worrying time. [00:26:42] That was such a waste of everybody's energy [00:26:45] that we even worried for one second about that.

[00:26:47] Cecilie Conrad: Of course, [00:26:48] we were so we can sleep at night and we had to have long [00:26:51] conversations with other people, and especially of course, [00:26:54] grandparents and. Our [00:26:57] siblings friends. Oh yeah. We had one who didn't read [00:27:00] until he was 13 and he [00:27:03] didn't read, couldn't read. Mm-hmm. While everyone [00:27:06] else was reading around him.

[00:27:08] Cecilie Conrad: Uh, our daughter, [00:27:09] one of our daughters started at four, so it was [00:27:12] just. Actually, no. He [00:27:15] learned to read before our youngest learned to read, but our youngest [00:27:18] is also very much younger than him. But anyway, [00:27:21] it was, there was so much worry and today he's [00:27:24] choosing his trousers when he is buying new [00:27:27] jeans on the basis of whether his Kindle can fit in [00:27:30] the pocket, because he's not going anywhere without [00:27:33] the Kindle.

[00:27:34] Cecilie Conrad: He is probably the one and they [00:27:36] read a lot. All of our kids. Yeah. Well, mostly the three older one at [00:27:39] this, at the moment. They all read a lot. I think Stone [00:27:42] reads,

[00:27:42] Jesper Conrad: oh, he reads all the time.

[00:27:43] Cecilie Conrad: But maybe the oldest Lou [00:27:45] reads slightly more because she reads really [00:27:48] fast when she's reading. But that's just the skill [00:27:51] that she has.

[00:27:52] Cecilie Conrad: So maybe. [00:27:54] I don't know if we did a page count. I don't know who of [00:27:57] the two would win, but it would be a lot of pages, that's for sure. [00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Susan Yao: Right.

[00:28:00] Cecilie Conrad: So the one we have who started [00:28:03] reading really late is a [00:28:06] very, very avid reader today. It was never [00:28:09] really a problem had we been had, we had the crystal [00:28:12] ball. Just known we would've had [00:28:15] so much more peace of mind, man.[00:28:18]

[00:28:18] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. And, and that's what we also see with a lot of the other [00:28:21] academic stuff. We have a [00:28:24] 17-year-old now who's doing math, never done any math [00:28:27] before. Literally didn't know how to divide two numbers, [00:28:30] didn't know what mm-hmm. The equation was [00:28:33] two months ago, and she's just [00:28:36] learning speed, learning it all right now.

[00:28:37] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. [00:28:39] What do you call it? K through 12, something like [00:28:42] that. Educational systems don't really line [00:28:45] up align, so it's hard to talk about. Right. [00:28:48] Cross culture. It's quite interesting actually, when she's [00:28:51] running through all of that. She has a plan of doing it in four [00:28:54] months. I'm pretty sure she'll succeed.

[00:28:55] Cecilie Conrad: Beautiful. About how

[00:28:56] Susan Yao: Yeah. [00:28:57]

[00:28:57] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah.

[00:28:57] Susan Yao: Yeah. The math myth was one book that [00:29:00] made me feel better about not doing. [00:29:03] Intentional math and in it, it gives the number [00:29:06] that unschoolers could learn elementary math in [00:29:09] 20 hours. That some families had [00:29:12] casually measured it and found that, you know, in just a few [00:29:15] hours and, but schools will convince you that you need [00:29:18] all 12 years, right?

[00:29:19] Susan Yao: Every minute of math [00:29:21] cannot be missed. They really make you feel bad if you [00:29:24] go on vacation or something. Mm-hmm. And, [00:29:27] uh, but maybe 20 hours is all you need [00:29:30] when it feels necessary, and maybe it will never feel necessary.

[00:29:32] Susan Yao: [00:29:33] I am just starting to have the [00:29:36] hindsight that you have now that, wow, I didn't need to [00:29:39] worry so much because now I can see where they [00:29:42] are a few years later.

[00:29:43] Susan Yao: And I did a lot of [00:29:45] worrying.

[00:29:46] Cecilie Conrad: Oh yeah. Well, I still do a lot of [00:29:48] worrying. Not about the same things anymore, [00:29:51] but I think it's just part of the game of being a [00:29:54] parent and now my kids are old enough that I can talk [00:29:57] to them about the things I worry about, and then we have [00:30:00] mature conversations and figure things out.

[00:30:02] Cecilie Conrad: So that's [00:30:03] different. Of course.

[00:30:04] Jesper Conrad: [00:30:06] Sometimes we meet in the [00:30:09] unschooling movement. Almost [00:30:12] a pride or batch of honor [00:30:15] of , not doing any academics at all, [00:30:18] as is anything that has to do with [00:30:21] schools or academics is bad. [00:30:24] That is actually better not to know it than your [00:30:27] kind of cool, and I find it a [00:30:30] little difficult dance to have [00:30:33] because I want to love and [00:30:36] respect and honor everyone's way of doing [00:30:39] it.

[00:30:39] Jesper Conrad: And I, find it difficult to figure out [00:30:42] how to take the toll because I [00:30:45] think as parents, each of us have [00:30:48] values. We have [00:30:51] values about what we think is [00:30:54] important, and those are [00:30:57] inherited down to our children by just being around them. [00:31:00] Do you meet this in your [00:31:03] unschooling circles? You have been in that, it's almost [00:31:06] like not learning is really cool or [00:31:09] the right thing to do.

[00:31:11] Susan Yao: I know what [00:31:12] you mean. And I have never been at that end of [00:31:15] the spectrum of unschooling where it's [00:31:18] truly, anything, [00:31:21] any possible pathway, no limits on [00:31:24] screens. , I've never been there. [00:31:27] And so I, I'm always keeping an eye [00:31:30] to skills that might be necessary. [00:31:33] You know, if you want high school to be an option, then I [00:31:36] want you to be aware of what limits your [00:31:39] choices or gives you that choice.

[00:31:40] Susan Yao: Or if you want to [00:31:42] have a certain job, uh, I always wanna sort of [00:31:45] notice what they might have or [00:31:48] not have yet. And so. [00:31:51] Our community. Our community does not [00:31:54] have that. We do have a range. One family has [00:31:57] unschooled, multiple children. A couple are adults [00:32:00] now. And it truly is, you know, [00:32:03] anything skills, academic, we're not [00:32:06] academic.

[00:32:06] Susan Yao: The way we define academic is also such a problem. [00:32:09] Right. And then one school chooses to do a [00:32:12] curriculum at home, even though our. [00:32:15] Learning community does not have that kind of curriculum. So [00:32:18] I think we have a range, but, um, [00:32:21] I haven't found that in, in our [00:32:24] community.

[00:32:25] Jesper Conrad: You, you said something [00:32:27] interesting there about even the way we talk about [00:32:30] academics is a problem.

[00:32:32] Jesper Conrad: Can you [00:32:33] unfold that a little? I find it [00:32:36] interesting.

[00:32:36] Susan Yao: Well. I noticed this when I [00:32:39] worked in schools because math [00:32:42] and reading are just, they're seen [00:32:45] as the most important academic topics. And so I taught [00:32:48] social studies and history and so [00:32:51] that's academic, but [00:32:54] often seen as less important than [00:32:57] reading and math.

[00:32:57] Susan Yao: And then you have art [00:33:00] and physical education, which in the US are being [00:33:03] cut all the time. And [00:33:06] you know, if there is a field trip or we need to cancel [00:33:09] a class, it's always let's cancel art first, or let's cancel [00:33:12] music class first and not the important [00:33:15] subjects. And I, one, one reason I [00:33:18] see us defining academics this way is that [00:33:21] the skills that benefit you [00:33:24] as an individual in the job market, that is what we [00:33:27] consider academic and we think a [00:33:30] lot about individualism.

[00:33:32] Susan Yao: Because [00:33:33] we are trying to promote collectivism in our learning [00:33:36] community and in school [00:33:39] we are just, we're teaching [00:33:42] children that your [00:33:45] individual skills matter more [00:33:48] than the groups skills. [00:33:51] And so you need to do what you [00:33:54] need to get ahead. And we even punish [00:33:57] collaboration. Plagiarism is just one of the most [00:34:00] severely penalized mistakes in [00:34:03] school.

[00:34:03] Susan Yao: And it is usually accidental that, oh, [00:34:06] I was talking to my friend and [00:34:09] their idea is in my project, [00:34:12] or I was taking notes and I didn't put [00:34:15] quotation marks, and so now I have a zero [00:34:18] or, you know, a letter in my file because that is the [00:34:21] worst crime of academia and that [00:34:24] really discourages working together.[00:34:27]

[00:34:27] Cecilie Conrad: Which is what we need and which is also [00:34:30] how people

[00:34:30] Susan Yao: are.

[00:34:30] Cecilie Conrad: We learn from each other. We learn from being [00:34:33] curious and having conversations.

[00:34:34] Yeah.

[00:34:35] Susan Yao: [00:34:36] Yeah. And a lot of group projects end up just teaching you that [00:34:39] one person needs to do all the work [00:34:42] or some people take credit and [00:34:45] don't do enough work.

[00:34:46] Susan Yao: We're not really learning how to work [00:34:48] together.

[00:34:49] Cecilie Conrad: But if I can go back to the [00:34:51] how we talk about academics question. I also think there's [00:34:54] the other way around the problem and there is, so in in the [00:34:57] radical unschooling community,

[00:34:59] Cecilie Conrad: we [00:35:00] can put academics in higher esteem. I think maybe [00:35:03] where we come from, we wouldn't not [00:35:06] appreciate social studies and history and [00:35:09] languages. Physics, [00:35:12] chemistry, biology, all these things that are [00:35:15] subjects taught in schools and part of the group we [00:35:18] call academics. They wouldn't [00:35:21] be like in a hierarchy like that.

[00:35:23] Cecilie Conrad: [00:35:24] Mm-hmm. There are some [00:35:27] key things, which is reading. [00:35:30] English and math, but that's because they are tools for the [00:35:33] other ones, right? So it kind of makes sense that you need those [00:35:36] three because you can't really do the other ones [00:35:39] without but I think in the unschooling community [00:35:42] sometimes there's this idea that all these things we need to [00:35:45] not do them.

[00:35:46] Cecilie Conrad: Right. That's [00:35:48] our, so now they become taboo [00:35:51] and it's more important to do you, [00:35:54] you are almost a better person if you're good at your [00:35:57] skateboard and at drawing and at [00:36:00] playing the guitar than if you're good at [00:36:03] knowing about Yes. From an empire and speaking three [00:36:06] languages or whatever. And so I [00:36:09] get that academics have been.

[00:36:11] Cecilie Conrad: A top [00:36:12] thing and it's been oppressing other people and it's [00:36:15] been violent and it's been bad, [00:36:18] but flipping, it doesn't fix that problem, [00:36:21] right? It just reverses the problem, makes [00:36:24] the problem look different as if you have a [00:36:27] yellow problem, but now you have a green problem, but now you have, [00:36:30] but you still have a problem.

[00:36:31] Cecilie Conrad: And I find that [00:36:33] quite challenging being the mother of [00:36:36] quite. Geeky, yeah. [00:36:39] Unschooled kids who happened to be very interested in the [00:36:42] Roman Empire in mathematics and black holes as [00:36:45] before. So it's as if I had [00:36:48] quite, we, mostly me, I was more identifying [00:36:51] with it, more doing it in the beginning. Quite a few years where [00:36:54] I didn't call myself an unschooling mom.

[00:36:55] Cecilie Conrad: I didn't say we were [00:36:57] unschooling because I kept getting this feedback from [00:37:00] the community that I was doing it wrong. Because [00:37:03] of my kids' interest. So they have the [00:37:06] wrong spontaneous interests. They have to be more [00:37:09] interested in I was just like, what?

[00:37:11] Susan Yao: Right. [00:37:12]

[00:37:12] Cecilie Conrad: What? Like when the feminists at the same [00:37:15] time, because I stopped having a career, went home, took [00:37:18] care of my four children, my husband, my home, my house, my, I was a [00:37:21] housewife.

[00:37:22] Cecilie Conrad: So the, and I started writing a blog, [00:37:24] so I, I was like shouting about it and [00:37:27] uh, the feminists came at me and said, but you are [00:37:30] ruining everything. We, we get a [00:37:33] bad conscience and we aren't standing in a bad [00:37:36] light being career women when you are [00:37:39] staying at home with your children because [00:37:42] that makes us look bad and that makes us feel bad, and then [00:37:45] we have less freedom.

[00:37:46] Cecilie Conrad: So please stop doing that. You're [00:37:48] ruining the freedom of women. And I was like, Hmm, [00:37:51] wait a minute. I think I'm a woman. [00:37:54] And I think I made a free choice to do this [00:37:57] thing, so Right. What are you saying? That my [00:38:00] free choice is ruining your free choice? There's no logic [00:38:03] there really, if you, yeah. [00:38:06] Mm-hmm. And there are just some problems in [00:38:09] this field that are, I think we [00:38:12] need to talk about them.

[00:38:13] Cecilie Conrad: I think we need to just point, [00:38:15] Hey, my freedom to do a thing that could be [00:38:18] considered conservative. It's still part of the [00:38:21] spectrum of free choices.

[00:38:23] Susan Yao: I

[00:38:23] Cecilie Conrad: feel free when I [00:38:24] do it. Yeah. So I had that problem. Now I'm having the [00:38:27] academics problem. I'm back in the game. I've [00:38:30] called myself a non schooler for a long time because I [00:38:33] am, and we are, but we're just [00:38:36] also studying [00:38:39] academics.

[00:38:40] Susan Yao: That is absolutely one of the [00:38:42] choices available to you. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I [00:38:45] think of Michelle Fuco who taught us that all [00:38:48] of these alternative cultures, they end up [00:38:51] re reproducing oppression by creating rules and policing [00:38:54] each other. That's the wrong way. Right? It's the wrong way to be an [00:38:57] unschooler.

[00:38:57] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah, exactly. And

[00:38:58] Susan Yao: you undermine the freedom [00:39:00] that you believe in.

[00:39:00] Cecilie Conrad: It's recreating exactly the same system [00:39:03] just by as flipping it. So now we had a yellow system [00:39:06] before, now we have a green system. Great. Same [00:39:09] system. It's different color. Yeah. That's [00:39:12] funny.

[00:39:12] Jesper Conrad: I think it's almost is a [00:39:15] societal immaturity problem because [00:39:18] I see that dialogue has [00:39:21] disappeared and people stand so clean on [00:39:24] there.

[00:39:24] Jesper Conrad: This is the only right way to do it and everyone [00:39:27] else is stupid. Uh, kind of rhetorics [00:39:30] and everything from politics to football, [00:39:33] to unfortunately also academics, uh, [00:39:36] schooling versus unschooling.

[00:39:37] Cecilie Conrad: Why did it have to do with social media? I'm just [00:39:39] wondering right now. Because we all have an echo [00:39:42] chamber. When, you know, when we were teenagers, we would read a [00:39:45] newspaper.

[00:39:45] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah. Everyone was reading the same five different newspapers. It [00:39:48] wasn't like there was any, there was an, you [00:39:51] choose the newspaper you like, but [00:39:54] now you just, the algorithms would just keep [00:39:57] repeating.

[00:39:58] Jesper Conrad: Yeah.

[00:39:58] Cecilie Conrad: What you say.

[00:39:59] Susan Yao: Yeah. You don't [00:40:00] even know you're in a bubble.

[00:40:01] Jesper Conrad: No.

[00:40:02] Cecilie Conrad: And maybe you do, but [00:40:03] you don't really know what's, even if you do know you're in a bubble, [00:40:06] how do you know what all the other bubbles look like?[00:40:09]

[00:40:09] Susan Yao: Right.

[00:40:09] Cecilie Conrad: How can you, even though,

[00:40:10] Susan Yao: You can't even, [00:40:12]

[00:40:12] Cecilie Conrad: yeah.

[00:40:12] Susan Yao: See the other bubbles.

[00:40:14] Jesper Conrad: Oh,

[00:40:14] Cecilie Conrad: [00:40:15] scary business.

[00:40:15] Jesper Conrad: Oh, I need to get some friends I don't [00:40:18] like maybe, and then, then talk [00:40:21] with them and end up liking them. All of a sudden. What? [00:40:24] Oh, no dialogue. I don't, I'm not sure, [00:40:27] Susan, about dialogue. It [00:40:30] has been wonderful talking with you today.

[00:40:32] Jesper Conrad: Uh, we will [00:40:33] try to round up the podcast for people who [00:40:36] wants to. Find what you write on Substack [00:40:39] as I did. And who want to learn more about the [00:40:42] micro school. Can you share with people where to find [00:40:45] you so they know where to [00:40:48] go?

[00:40:48] Susan Yao: Sure. Our, so our learning community [00:40:51] has a website, Vermont Village School.

[00:40:53] Susan Yao: We decided [00:40:54] not to be on social media. The website is the main [00:40:57] way to find us. And then I have a personal substack that's [00:41:00] more about me as a parent, and I created it for [00:41:03] all my college friends who grew up in traditional [00:41:06] schools and are now curious about [00:41:09] alternatives for their children. And so that's [00:41:12] on, on Substack at Suo, [00:41:15] S-U-S-Y-A-O.

[00:41:16] Jesper Conrad: Perfect. Should we

[00:41:17] Cecilie Conrad: just put the links [00:41:18] in the show notes?

[00:41:18] Jesper Conrad: We'll, I also need you to [00:41:21] re-mention the book on the About math, because it [00:41:24] didn't get the title for that one.

[00:41:26] Susan Yao: The Math [00:41:27] Myth by Andrew Hacker. It's a great book. [00:41:30] Questioning. Uh. Why we teach math the way we [00:41:33] do in the United States and how it does not match [00:41:36] what you even need for your career.

[00:41:37] Susan Yao: Even if you work at [00:41:39] nasa, it does not match, and it's keeping so many [00:41:42] students from graduating or becoming doctors. It, [00:41:45] you know, it's a, it's a barrier that is not [00:41:48] even connected to the real world. [00:41:51]

[00:41:51] Cecilie Conrad: I'll put it on my reading list right away.

[00:41:53] Jesper Conrad: Absolutely. [00:41:54] Thank you for the talk and thank you for the book [00:41:57] recommendation.

[00:41:58] Jesper Conrad: It was a pleasure.

[00:41:59] Susan Yao: [00:42:00] Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed this conversation. [00:42:03]

[00:42:03] Jesper Conrad: Likewise, and

[00:42:03] Susan Yao: thanks for all you're doing.