#2 - Erika Davis-Pitre | The Unschooling Revolution - Nurturing Humanity & Freedom

AUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPT

Transcript of Self Directed Episode 2 - The Unschooling Revolution - Nurturing Humanity & Freedom: With Erika Davis-Pitre

Please note: This transcript is autogenerated by AI voice recognition - so there will probably be some transcription errors along the way 🙂

[00:00:00] Jesper Conrad: Welcome to Self-Directed. Your host are Sicilian, Jess Rad, and today's guest is Erica Davis. We're here today, uh, together with Erica, whom we met back in 2019 in Granada in Spain. And she was just a blast to be together with. I had so much fun and we also learned a lot from her. Um, and why do you like your.

[00:00:27] Jesper Conrad: But 

[00:00:27] Cecilie Conrad: it's obvious. She's awesome. 

[00:00:30] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. 

[00:00:33] Cecilie Conrad: No. So Erica, to me, you're special because you convinced me that I was a radical unschooler. I didn't know at the time, but we had some conversations about unschooling and about the difference between unschooling and radical unschooling. And I thought I was to the more soft side in a way.

[00:00:57] Cecilie Conrad: Um, but I learned a lot of, [00:01:00] uh, interesting things about myself because I have not been an unschooler unschooling mom after reading a book. I've been more on the intuitive journey of just doing what felt right. Sure. And then I learned all the fancy words afterwards. Just like I think my, my oldest child was maybe 10 when someone taught me the word co-sleeping.

[00:01:26] Cecilie Conrad: Sound to me like a system or something difficult. Yeah. Whereas in our family, we just, you know, we fall asleep in one big pile because we're really tired and that's, you know, that's it. 

[00:01:38] Jesper Conrad: It feels natural. 

[00:01:39] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah. There's nothing to it. And, uh, okay. Unschooling is, is quite, um, quite a handful and, and very much more difficult to get started with because it's, yeah.

[00:01:53] Cecilie Conrad: It was not just natural for someone who has, uh, 25 years of schooling and comes [00:02:00] from a family of academics. Um, yeah. And then I met you, uh, a few years down my journey and, um, you are like, you so. It was just so, such a relief. And, uh, I, I think about you quite often, even though we don't talk that often.

[00:02:19] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. Uh, because it takes my shoulders down. Can you say that English? Yeah. Yeah. So that's why we were like, yeah, we wanna talk to Erica and record it. 

[00:02:32] Erika Davis-Pitre: Well. Well, two and two, two things that I think I will interject here that's really important. I call myself a radical unschooler or unschooler just as an identifier so that when I'm in a crowd of homeschoolers or a crowd of educators, I'm identifiable.

[00:02:50] Erika Davis-Pitre: But it, for me, it's not, um, a set of circumstances or rules that you have to follow in order to become an unschooler or a radical unschooler. [00:03:00] It's just an identifier. Like, um, I like, I like, uh, Brie instead of I. Um, blue cheese, it, it, it, it doesn't define me. It just helps me to identify with other unschoolers and other people who are on the journey.

[00:03:18] Erika Davis-Pitre: So, um, there's not a set of rules or there's not a way to be an unschooler in my opinion. It's just, um, it helps for that understanding and it helps you to move along further on your journey. It's not a, it's not a stopping point and it's not a beginning or an end. It's just, it helps you to, uh, define yourself to others.

[00:03:41] Erika Davis-Pitre: I now, as far as the self-identify, did you call it 

[00:03:44] Cecilie Conrad: an identifier or a definer? What 

[00:03:47] Erika Davis-Pitre: was the word? Uh uh, so an identifier to others. Yeah. It's a not a definer. Not a definer for yourself. Exactly. 

[00:03:54] Cecilie Conrad: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and that's, that has been one of my problems [00:04:00] with unschooling exactly. Is that it could be some kind of strict set of rules and that would be a way to do it wrong.

[00:04:08] Cecilie Conrad: And then I didn't have the right to call myself an unschooler anymore, and I just left the whole concept just like, um, yeah. With, with other like isms, there can be this almost religious, um mm-hmm. A nerve to it that I don't like, and being very anarchistic in my, my deep gene pool. It's, it's not something I read books about.

[00:04:31] Cecilie Conrad: It's just that I really dislike rules, um, and, and exact, especially authorities don't tell me what to do. I don't like it. Please let me think for myself. 

[00:04:41] Erika Davis-Pitre: So, so change that word rules into principles and then it makes it, it makes it palatable because for me, I'm, I'm trying to get away from rules which are situational and can change.

[00:04:56] Erika Davis-Pitre: And, and leaning more towards principles, which are your [00:05:00] values, which don't change. They, they grow and expand, but they are your core values of compassion. Um, you know, helpfulness, uh, love, friendliness, laughter, humor. Um, do unto others, as others do unto you. Those principles float over every rule. They apply in every situation, whereas rules tend to be, um, uh, defined in a moment or in a situation that can be wiggled around, that can be changed, that can be manipulated.

[00:05:33] Erika Davis-Pitre: But your principles, your core principles, they don't, they don't change much. They, they bring you back to being human, being a person that's in a community of other humans, if you're lucky. And, um, it helps, it helps me to define unschooling in a way that doesn't. Restrict, but actually expands my humanity.

[00:05:57] Erika Davis-Pitre: Um, for me, unschooling meant [00:06:00] not following rules, not having a set set of practices that you, that define you, but rather stepping outside of that box, looking at what works of rejecting what doesn't work, redefining what does work at different stages of your life. Always growing and changing. Always schooling yourself about yourself, about the people around you.

[00:06:26] Erika Davis-Pitre: So unschooling to me, as a definition, means to live without bricks and mortar school. Without a set set of circumstances that must occur in order for one to learn unschooling steps out of that paradigm and says, you're learning all the time at all times, and it never stops it, it just keeps going on and on and on.

[00:06:52] Cecilie Conrad: So, but unschooling mm-hmm. With your, I totally agree, obviously, but [00:07:00] I'm just thinking unschooling is leaving the idea of the physical school, of the, of the i, the idea that we have this context, and in this context learning happens, and then we have all the other contexts and they're like less important or less focused and less have less homeless value.

[00:07:20] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. But there is the homeschooling, um, repetition of the school at the kitchen table, which is also leaving the physical school. Mm-hmm. And maybe bringing things more in balance. And this is different from unschooling. So in my opinion, I find one of the things I find really hard to wrap my head around with unschooling is do we have a goal?

[00:07:52] Cecilie Conrad: Like, so you say, so I'm saying this because you said looking at what works and what doesn't work mm-hmm. [00:08:00] Does work in 

[00:08:02] Erika Davis-Pitre: order to achieve what, uh, in order to achieve and maintain your humanity. Yeah. So you're a direct participant in shaping your world, however that looks. So academics, we, we. Focus a lot in western cultures, on academics, on the value of learning, um, through a physical, direct, uh, process that happens between the ages of, you know, five and let's say 30.

[00:08:41] Erika Davis-Pitre: Let's say if you're going for your PhD or you're gonna be a doctor or some other incredibly learned person. Um, we give a finite period of learning. And then after that, what happened? I, I don't even wanna think about how we as a [00:09:00] society have positioned ourselves to assume that learning happens during this finite time, in a finite space with a finite, um, set of, of comrades.

[00:09:14] Erika Davis-Pitre: Um, either. In, in elementary, middle, or high school, in college, uh, in advanced studies, you, you, you learn and then you stop being the learner and start being the teacher or the wise one. And there's a vast amount of time between when learning happens and when you become the, the learn ed, and then you become the teacher or the elder or whatever circumstance.

[00:09:43] Erika Davis-Pitre: When I look at unschooling first, it unhi us from the academic ideal. That learning happens between the ages of, um, five and, and 22. Say for the average first [00:10:00] of college experience, I, I'm unhinging that from, from that system. So there's the academic, the reason why I talked about us being radical unschoolers is we've detached.

[00:10:14] Erika Davis-Pitre: All sorts of learning, not just the academic learning, um, requirement that happens only when you're young. But we've unhinged that from every learning. There's learning when you're, when you're co-sleeping, there's learning. When you're, um, not forcing people to eat food that they don't want to eat, there's learning, not forcing people to go to bed at a bedtime.

[00:10:39] Erika Davis-Pitre: There's learning, not living in one place and having one place be home. It's, it's stretching and learning. When we become nomadic in all kinds of situations, not just physically with our housing, but also with the way we work and the way we, um, and the way we treat each other and how it works [00:11:00] in relationships, there's all kinds of ways we can expand as radical unschoolers.

[00:11:05] Erika Davis-Pitre: It's not just education, although that's usually the jumping off point. That's usually when people say, Hey. I can learn another way, and it doesn't have to stop, and it doesn't have to be in, in neat little categories like math and reading and, um, science and all these little categories. It's, it's bringing it all together and saying, I'm a whole person and I'm gonna be a whole learner.

[00:11:34] Erika Davis-Pitre: I don't wanna stop 

[00:11:36] Cecilie Conrad: because I'm not, and the learning is not the goal. Learning is not the goal, it's the benefit. That's my, one of my key Mm mm mm points that I want to, to, to underline when I talk about unschooling is that now that I am. A few miles down the road that you've [00:12:00] walked much further. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:02] Cecilie Conrad: Um, I, I'm, I'm beyond that idea of, uh, learning has to happen in a special context. Yes. But I, one thing that was maybe a little harder to get arrive at or pass through was the idea that learning's not the point. Right. Learning is not the goal. The goal. You, you said something about, um, the goal is, is living your humanity.

[00:12:26] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. Um, maybe you want to unfold that a little more. So what is Sure. So when you talk about what works and why we do what we do, um, you say humanity and that would be interesting too. 

[00:12:41] Erika Davis-Pitre: So a lot of, a lot of the systems in Western culture, um, separate you from your humanity. They, they give you a number, they give you a goal, and they say that's the most important thing.

[00:12:53] Erika Davis-Pitre: So let's look at those goals. Most, most western cultures want you to make a lot of money. Yeah. [00:13:00] They want you to participate in, in capitalism in a way that reinforces, uh, what you were taught about your humanity. So you're, you're encouraged to, to buy, to own, to, to participate. Um, with the goal of maintaining a system that really does strip us of our humanity.

[00:13:25] Erika Davis-Pitre: It makes us a number. It makes us a, a process. It makes us, uh, um, we get a dollar value. How, how valuable am I? To the system versus how valuable am I to the person I live with or to the person that depends on me. So when I say unschooling, for me radical unschooling, by the way, I define them differently because I want as many people to come into the academic unschooling as possible.

[00:13:58] Erika Davis-Pitre: Because that's the gateway. [00:14:00] Yeah, that's the gateway to you're them into their humanity. That's it. That's the gateway. Once we let go of the system, that educates us and that informs us of how we should spend, of how we should, how we should learn, of how we should mate, of how we should live, what class we belong to.

[00:14:20] Erika Davis-Pitre: Once we separate ourselves from that academically. Once we separate the fact that you don't have to be with 20 other eight year olds in order to be eight and learn, yeah. You can actually be with a multi-generational, multi-age group and learn just as well. I say better then you are if you're stuck with a bunch of your same age mates.

[00:14:46] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yeah. Once you let go of that possibility, all the other possibilities kind of open up. So when I talk about my goal is to maintain my humanity and to expand it [00:15:00] so that I'm generous with it, I'm talking from a radical unschooling perspective because the first step into maintaining my humanity and expanding it is making sure that the people around me have the same privilege regardless of age.

[00:15:16] Erika Davis-Pitre: Now I'm at an age where my humanity is reinforced. Daily, I get to do whatever I want. 'cause I don't have young children that are dependent on me. And even my partner who is very dependent on me in certain aspects. It's not critical. It's not, oh, if I don't do this, this person doesn't survive, or this, or this person might, you know, not have the best of outcomes.

[00:15:43] Erika Davis-Pitre: So when that was relieved of me, because, you know, my youngest is 30 years old, when that day to day, um, responsibility was relieved of me, I finally get to a place where my humanity could be just about me. [00:16:00] I could, I could eat what I want when I want. I could do what I want. But because I expanded my humanity when I had small children, I've learned that the best part of me.

[00:16:13] Erika Davis-Pitre: In a humane way is, is is serving and being with others? Yeah. It's being a part of a community and I'm so happy that I learned that before freedom came, because if freedom had come first, I would have to dig in to find my, my contribution. I'd have to, I'd have to make an effort. Now it's effortless, including others is effortless.

[00:16:41] Erika Davis-Pitre: Taking this call was effortless. Mm-hmm. It's not, it's not, oh geez. You know, God, you know, schedule wise it's difficult of course, but spirit wise, it, it, it's expanding. It's, it's my humanity expanding. It's [00:17:00] me being generous with what I generously give. It's not extracted. It's not, it's not another process.

[00:17:09] Erika Davis-Pitre: It's not. Um, it's not difficult for me. It's very easy. 

[00:17:13] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. E Erica, there's stuff about my mind about the word unschooling and as you, you call it a gateway. Um, when I look back at my life, I'm one of those who really didn't listen super much in class, but did a lot of fun projects and I didn't go to university.

[00:17:31] Jesper Conrad: I just kept making stuff I thought was fun. 

[00:17:34] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. And 

[00:17:35] Jesper Conrad: there is something about being on this travel. We are now 10 years down the road mm-hmm. Where, um, where I am like, but is it unschooling? We are just living. But I'm, I, I think it's a good, um, name for the, for the gateway because to me it seems like it's often there that people, uh, [00:18:00] start to question I.

[00:18:01] Jesper Conrad: Uh, the system, the school, when they put their kids in school or in institution, they start to question, what is happening? What am I doing towards my own, uh, offspring? Why I am putting them into this, uh, almost prison-like structure where they are in a very weird place with, as you say, people the same age.

[00:18:22] Jesper Conrad: I, um, and I will come to my question, I just, yeah. I was thinking, what's the question? No, no, no. That is a question. No, no. But I, I talked with some people about unschooling one day, and they, and I said to them, you know, what, if I came into, uh, if I was invited to a party where there was only everybody there had the same age as me and was born in the same area, I would be totally terrified.

[00:18:46] Jesper Conrad: I would feel like in a horror movie, like, what is going on? Mm-hmm. But I'm like, I'm, have you searched for another word? Or you're just, oh, let's call it unschooling and radical unschooling, because for me, some of it seems more like a [00:19:00] philosophy. Um, 

[00:19:02] Erika Davis-Pitre: the reason why I don't call it something else is steeped in my, um, African American, black colored Negro Afro-American, um, and the n word experience.

[00:19:17] Erika Davis-Pitre: You're constantly renaming, refashioning, changing what I'm called and what I, what, how I exist in, in, in the United States. And when I came to understand and recognize so much energy goes into, um, redefining versus experiencing and living. I'm, I'm fine with radical unschooling. I'm fine with unschooling because I believe, um, having that common language is important.

[00:19:51] Erika Davis-Pitre: So when I walk up to someone and they say, so what's your story? It depends on context. If I, if [00:20:00] I come into a, a room and it's a bunch of, uh, schooled, academic, strong learners, I say, oh, I was a homeschooling mom. If they question that further, I know there's an opening. Actually, we were unschoolers, we didn't follow a scope and sequence.

[00:20:20] Erika Davis-Pitre: We didn't follow curriculum. If there's inquiries further, I say we were radical unschoolers. We applied the unschooling principles to everything. So there were no bedtimes, there was no half. You have to eat. There were no chores. There were requests. We, we lived humanely amongst ourselves. Was it ideal? Oh, absolutely not.

[00:20:43] Erika Davis-Pitre: There were times when the, when the toilet bowl did not get cleaned, and, and I was beside myself because I grew up with all females. So the toilet being clean was not quite. In the mix of things [00:21:00] because of the way I peed and the way I used the toilet, fast forward to my life with three sons and a husband.

[00:21:09] Erika Davis-Pitre: Toilet cleaning became a real sticking point. Now, I could have made the rule that the people who pee on the floor clean the toilet, or I could have come with them at them with the principle of, look, this harms me. It makes me feel less welcome in my own home. How can we. As a collective, we make it so that I feel comfortable in this space.

[00:21:38] Erika Davis-Pitre: And we brainstormed and we talked about things when they were younger. It was really easy because everyone wanted to be cooperative 'cause we lived in a cooperative home. So it was easy to transition from, um, really feeling neglected and un unseen, to actually making sure I was seen by saying what my needs were.

[00:21:59] Erika Davis-Pitre: [00:22:00] That's, that's what I love about unschooling for me, and radical unschooling in particular, is I didn't have to sacrifice what I needed to feel comfortable in my home. I was on equal par with my kids. And my kids were on equal par with me. So they wanted me to feel comfortable in my home and I wanted them to feel comfortable helping me feel comfortable in my home.

[00:22:21] Erika Davis-Pitre: So it's this huge thing, but I didn't call it anything else. You can call it cooperative living, you can call it. Um, when, when they were babies and toddlers, it was attachment parenting. We shared a bed. I didn't know anything about cold sleeping. I just, we just slept. Yeah, we just slept. It was against the norm of putting a kid in a room by themselves in a cop by themselves.

[00:22:45] Erika Davis-Pitre: It was against the norm, especially with my oldest. It was completely against the norm, but all I wanted to do was get a good night's sleep and be able to take care of my kids. 

[00:22:57] Cecilie Conrad: It's not even about, you know, you can come afterwards [00:23:00] and say something about, you know, it's very good with skin contact and, but.

[00:23:05] Cecilie Conrad: Nope. It wasn't any of that. And foremost, it's just 

[00:23:08] Erika Davis-Pitre: about sleeping. You know? It's about sleeping, it's about, and you know, what else? Really tired. And you know what else it's about? It's about everybody getting to know what it is that they need. Yeah. At their core. So not having a bedtime, not having this arbitrary time when everybody had to be asleep, but actually talking about what needs to occur for everyone to get good rest.

[00:23:35] Erika Davis-Pitre: So we could have had people up all hours of the night playing loud music, entertaining themselves in a way that is comfortable for them. But then I would point out to them, your parents need to make an income and we need to have good sleep in order to do that. 

[00:23:54] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah. So 

[00:23:55] Erika Davis-Pitre: you've gotta find a way that when nightfall comes for us, which was [00:24:00] quite late, even, even, um, when they were young, it was quite late.

[00:24:04] Erika Davis-Pitre: Uh, we've gotta have quiet. So you've gotta figure out how to do what you love to do without disrupting our sleep. And we talked about it a lot. The real benefit of talking about processes rather than just living them, just following the rules, giving people bedtimes, doing this is you can honestly talk to your people and say, I need this.

[00:24:30] Erika Davis-Pitre: How can you help me get it? And they help you. They don't feel like they're being punished. They don't feel like they're being, um, taken advantage of. And, and when they do, they tell you, you know, um, get earplugs. I wanna be able to listen to my music. Can you get earplugs? They help you find the solutions 

[00:24:51] Cecilie Conrad: when they're included.

[00:24:53] Cecilie Conrad: Very often they see things from a completely different perspective. I get surprised very often [00:25:00] by what they say and, and when you tell this story, I also think about how unschooling for us, if there is one thing that really defines the process of being an unschooling family. It is. I think we talk a lot.

[00:25:15] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah. We spend a lot of time having conversations with each other, like hours and hours, and even when it's bedtime and we, we have this, um, s system or the way to handle it, that we sleep all at the same time. Right. We all need more or less the same amount of sleep. And as we live, we're so lucky in, man, it's like it's very highly impractical if someone is awake and someone else needs to sleep.

[00:25:43] Cecilie Conrad: So we just coordinate it and we negotiate it on a daily basis. Sure. Is it like about now or should we wait an hour? It's, it's not like, it's not top down in any way. Yeah. But then we, at some point we lie down with our blankets and our pillows and the [00:26:00] conversation goes on. Right. You keep talking about things when you, 

[00:26:05] Erika Davis-Pitre: uh, when you have that as your core, we're going to communicate, we're gonna talk.

[00:26:10] Erika Davis-Pitre: Well, it doesn't mean there aren't rough times. There is, there are so many times I've lost my temper. I mean, I am embarrassed by the number of times I just said, look, this needs to happen this way. And then I recognize, I recognize I'm not just my present of my past. I'm not just what I'm trying to live for and live up to.

[00:26:43] Erika Davis-Pitre: I'm also, I'm also, um, dealing with how I was dealt with and how I came to be. So I'm constantly reeducating myself and giving myself grace. So [00:27:00] that my kids know you can give yourself grace. It's not like you are one and done. You, you, you fall off the wagon and you yell and you lose your temper and then the whole principle is out the window and go back to authoritarian parenting and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:27:17] Erika Davis-Pitre: No. It's like I have to re remember and recall, especially in times of stress, I'm gonna go back to what, what I was cultural to, to believe is right. And then I have to walk back to, to reasonable, um, ways of living. I have to give myself back my humanity. I have to be forgiving and loving of myself so I can be forgived and loved by others.

[00:27:46] Erika Davis-Pitre: 'cause I think the biggest wall to, uh, um, radical unschooling is. Is your belief that you don't deserve, your kids do, but you don't. You, you can just go along. [00:28:00] You can be the self-sacrificing person and it doesn't work well in that way. And you also have to give, you have to give your people the space to, to reject you and to reject how you're living, which is very hard when you're perfect and when you've got and right.

[00:28:22] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yes. It's very hard to be, yeah, it's very hard when, when your people don't see your growth. I always, um, my husband and I are always having in conversation about how we're air. How we're so good at what we do. We're not recognized as, as working. It's just air, you know, you don't say to yourself every second, oh, I'm breathing.

[00:28:46] Erika Davis-Pitre: Oh, I'm breathing. Look at that. I'm breathing. Oh, I'm still alive. I'm breathing. I'm breathing. You don't do that. You, you take, you take it for granted. And that's the same thing when you live in a consensual, loving home. Sometimes it's not seen. [00:29:00] It's just, it just is. It's your environment, it's your air. So you have to, you have to silently, but subtly remind yourself that this is a, a living organism that needs to be recognized and acknowledged.

[00:29:16] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. Because it's 

[00:29:16] Erika Davis-Pitre: a, it's, it's effortless and effortful at the same time. There are times when, wow, we, we run like a. Great machine. Everybody is satisfied and happy. And then there are times when you hit the wall because someone's not seen, because they've changed ever so subtly, but they've changed and they want everyone to see them without contributing to that site.

[00:29:43] Erika Davis-Pitre: I found, I found unschooling a perfect match for attachment parenting for the way we parent it. So I had two kids that always went to school, bricks and mortar school, um, for a number of [00:30:00] reasons, mostly because it was societally acceptable and it. Completely honest with you, when you had two parents working, um, school worked.

[00:30:14] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yeah. It's a very practical institution. It was, it was pretty darn good. You know, uh, even with all of its foibles, when you're doing something that the rest of society is doing and encouraging you to do, and you're good at it and, and your kids are good at it, it's like, oh yeah, this is this, this works.

[00:30:34] Erika Davis-Pitre: Then you wake up and you see all the effort going into maintaining that system, all the energy that goes into maintaining that system and all of the loss of autonomy that goes into that system. Then you begin to say, is that energy? Is that, is that. Value worth the expense? Is it worth the [00:31:00] expense of family time?

[00:31:00] Erika Davis-Pitre: Is it worth the expense of individuality? Is it worth the expense of humanity? Is it worth it? And we came to the conclusion, um, maybe when the third was, uh, I'd say 10 or 11, we started saying, no, it's really not worth it anymore. But how do you, how do you switch? How do you slowly, you know, recognize I want something different.

[00:31:28] Erika Davis-Pitre: Um, 'cause it, like I said, we got a lot of props. We were very successful parents, as schooled parents, we were successful. So how do you shift from success and go for something that's. Unknown. 'cause we're talking 25, almost 30 years, we're talking a long time ago. And so when we started making the shift, uh oh, we were called all kinds of things.

[00:31:58] Erika Davis-Pitre: We were, we were [00:32:00] looked upon. And in, in my husband and myself, we had two different views of how education, how our family life was gonna look like going forward. So there was a lot of discussion, a lot of talk, but not a lot of discussion and talk outside of us because at its infancy it was, it was scary.

[00:32:23] Erika Davis-Pitre: It was, um, difficult to not be encouraged after, you know, 25, 30 years of being encouraged that we're, we're the greatest things since sliced bread and you're doing fabulous things to, to step away from that. And then. Our family members that are educators felt judged, like, oh yeah, well it was good. It was good enough for you.

[00:32:48] Erika Davis-Pitre: What are you saying? What are you saying about the way you were raised? And I wasn't saying anything about the way I was raised. As a matter of fact, I think I was raised in a stellar way because I could recognize I wanted [00:33:00] something different for myself. If they hadn't raised me well enough, in my opinion, they wouldn't, I wouldn't have asked for anything different.

[00:33:08] Erika Davis-Pitre: So I was raised pretty well because I was able to walk away from the traditional, um, success that I was presented with, offered and lived within. So on the one hand, I didn't want that for myself or my children going forward. I recognized that I was raised to question so that I could fashion another life for myself.

[00:33:34] Erika Davis-Pitre: So it's, it's not all good and bad. It's, it's that amalgam of. Moving through your life, acknowledging your humanity, acknowledging your growth, acknowledging where you want to expand. I don't know if I have very many goals besides be a good person. I just want you to be decent. There's so many opportunities to be inhumane.

[00:33:59] Erika Davis-Pitre: There's [00:34:00] so many opportunities to be successful by compromising your humanity. Yeah. So for me to say, my goal is to retain and maintain my humanity. It's huge. Especially in this time of post covid. We, we see it all the time. A whole generation, a whole group of people are being disregarded. It's like if you die, you die.

[00:34:27] Erika Davis-Pitre: And then there's a whole group of people and a whole generation of people who you, you are in the sweet spot. Don't, don't worry about those people. It's, it's your time. And I'm like, no, it's never been. It's always been the interconnectedness. It's always been the humanity. It's never been someone's time over someone else's time.

[00:34:50] Erika Davis-Pitre: It's never been that way. So how do we get back to seeing each other as a part of each other? How do we get back to that? For me, [00:35:00] unschooling returns us to that interdependence, even if it's only on a, a social, emotional level in our family. It's, it's a slow step back to that interdependence that needs to happen in order for us as a society, as a people to exist.

[00:35:18] Erika Davis-Pitre: And now when we're looking at climate change and all the things that are detrimental to the entire world. We need people who understand and recognize everything has to happen together. There can't be a segment over here that's living this way and a segment over here that's living that way. We all have to come together.

[00:35:39] Erika Davis-Pitre: And I think the family unit, however it's defined, it doesn't have to be a mom and dad and kids. It can be whoever you, you bring into your household and you co relive and you coexist. We've got to be the people who are running things. We've got,[00:36:00] 

[00:36:02] Cecilie Conrad: what was it? Yeah. So what I'm saying is, is that, so one thing I think is really important is to be able to live our lives outside of professional contexts. Yes, yes. So that we are living and working and learning and eating and sleeping in a context of, of love. Yes. And, and of, and community, 

[00:36:26] Erika Davis-Pitre: life and community, 

[00:36:28] Cecilie Conrad: it's 

[00:36:28] Erika Davis-Pitre: not, it's not enough.

[00:36:29] Erika Davis-Pitre: It's not enough. It's not enough that your, your, your, um, nuclear family is doing well. It it, it's expanding that ideal of family to include community. Like, um, what I love about the World School Family summits is you get to live in community. It's five days, but you get to live in community and you get to experience other people's living [00:37:00] in their communities.

[00:37:01] Erika Davis-Pitre: You get to, you get to see how many different ways you can plug in and be a part of a community and how, um, the internet and other modes of communication help to expand that community. So I may not see you and your family in the physical sense. But every four or five years, let's say, or every two or three years, anytime we're in the, on the same continent, doing the, doing the same thing.

[00:37:33] Erika Davis-Pitre: I drive really real rather 

[00:37:35] Cecilie Conrad: far. If I was on the same continent. Yeah, yeah. But exactly the Atlantic to consider. 

[00:37:41] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yeah. But the, but even with the, the physical separation, you're still now a part of my community. I, I still think of you and your family as, as part of my extended family. Um, so if I need something where you [00:38:00] are, if I have a, a, a, a soul that's in my local community, that's in your, in your purview, in your community, and they have a problem or they have a, a joy or they have an experience that they want to have with.

[00:38:15] Erika Davis-Pitre: More community with more family. I'm gonna contact you. Mm-hmm. Oh, my, my son and, and and his partner are in, are in, um, Normandy, or they're in, um, Scandinavia, or they're in Spain, or they're in wherever you are. Um, they really could use a good meal and to, to talk with someone in the community. Are you available?

[00:38:40] Erika Davis-Pitre: And, and if you are, great and if you're not, it doesn't lessen my inquiries in the future. I get it. I 

[00:38:49] Cecilie Conrad: just had the question. We gave a speech on an unschool homeschool festival in Germany a few weeks ago. Mm-hmm. And one of the questions we, we were given was [00:39:00] if we lack or miss community. And I think that after I, I started unschooling mm-hmm.

[00:39:08] Cecilie Conrad: And even leveled up by traveling full time. I've never had more and stronger community. Yes. The idea of community being a neighborhood or a Yes. What is it called in English? These places where you Intentional community? Yeah. Yeah. Like people go live for some reason they go live close to each other, to have community.

[00:39:30] Cecilie Conrad: Sure. Um, nice and good. If it works, I'm not against it. It's just in our life, traveling full time. We don't have a home. We, we don't have a residence anywhere. Sure. I feel so strongly connected to the people that I'm connected with. Absolutely. And I know that my children feel the same because we have these conversations 24 7 and they tell me about it.

[00:39:57] Cecilie Conrad: Yes. So it's so [00:40:00] true. Is more complicated than, than a physical, um, being close to each otherness. Right. And I think that exactly as unschoolers, when we live our life in a non-institutional, non-professional way, we meet our world from this perspective 

[00:40:22] Erika Davis-Pitre: of, it's, it's really a non-institutional way. Yeah.

[00:40:26] Erika Davis-Pitre: Because institutions have to have rules, barriers. Boundaries. They have to have them. An institution thrives on absolutely. Knowing. When things are gonna occur and when they're not gonna occur, who's allowed in and who's not. When you don't have an a, an institutional community, when your community is based on like, is when it's based on love, when it's based on passion, when it's based on, um, your sheer humanity, [00:41:00] like, man, you are such interesting people.

[00:41:04] Erika Davis-Pitre: I want you in my circle. I wanna follow you. I want you to be a part of my community because you expand what I know of the world. You expand what I know of the world. So for me, community is such a vast, large thing. But even further than that, family is such a bigger thing. Like I have a young man that wrote to me, I hadn't seen him in probably in person maybe six years.

[00:41:33] Erika Davis-Pitre: Um, he's applying to college and he had three personal references. So he says to his mom, um, see if you can get in touch with, with Erica and see if she will write a letter of recommendation. And I, I didn't, I wasn't in on the conversation, but I know what occurred. His mom said, probably said, I don't know, you haven't seen her, and, you know, five or six years in [00:42:00] person.

[00:42:01] Erika Davis-Pitre: And he said, the pinnacle thing that lets me know the way I'm living my life is so respectful of my humanity and someone else's. He said she always saw me whenever I was present. I asked questions. I challenged what she said, and she always saw me as a valuable person in, in community. She elevated my question.

[00:42:30] Erika Davis-Pitre: She elevated my um. My challenges, she elevated them to her level. She never said, oh, you're, she never de diminished me. She never treated me as if I wasn't her equal. And the only reason why she wouldn't write my letter of recommendation is if she doesn't have time, but I know she'll have time. So she, the mom wrote me and said, you know, Julian wants [00:43:00] this, would you be interested?

[00:43:01] Erika Davis-Pitre: And I said, oh, absolutely. Here's my number. Here's my email. Let him know I'm ready, you know, whatever he needs. And, um, he was so respectful. Uh, I'm asking you to speak about when I was younger and I have very firm memories and I said, so do I. Absolutely. I'll write, write you a letter of recommendation.

[00:43:25] Erika Davis-Pitre: That would, that would be fantastic. I want you to achieve your goal. I want you to excel at what you want for yourself. Just as if I saw him Tuesday. 

[00:43:37] Cecilie Conrad: Yeah. '

[00:43:37] Erika Davis-Pitre: cause that community sense, that sense of being seen and heard is so important for all members of our community. Not just the adults, not just the kids, but everyone.

[00:43:51] Erika Davis-Pitre: Now, this is a young man that's a good what, 45 years younger than I am. But he saw me as a contemporary [00:44:00] and as someone who could speak well to who he was. Mm-hmm. So that his foundation of who he is is well defined and he had no hesitation. 

[00:44:13] Cecilie Conrad: That's the thing. That's the thing. It's, it's, but I find it sometimes really hard to explain to people on the beginning of the journey.

[00:44:21] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:23] Erika Davis-Pitre: I think it can't be explained. 

[00:44:26] Cecilie Conrad: No, it can, it can be lived and, and it can be lived. Try kind of try to shout, you know, don't worry about community, like the, like the, do they have any friends? And you're like, uh, yeah. And I can give the, sing the whole song again, but, but I have to just put some courage into the, to the beginning.

[00:44:50] Cecilie Conrad: Yes. Mother. And, and say obviously, and it will all be good and fine. It will be different, but it will be better. And, and, uh, in the same [00:45:00] way this community question, it seems like in the beginning it, it seemed like. I don't know. Like I usually say it's like walking through that closet with all those coats and then you mm-hmm.

[00:45:12] Cecilie Conrad: Then there's no back wall and there's more coats. Yes. And then in the end, you know, it's a different world. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's the best way to explain it. And this happened in reality when we started to be, uh, radical unschoolers. 

[00:45:25] Erika Davis-Pitre: And, 

[00:45:26] Cecilie Conrad: and it 

[00:45:26] Erika Davis-Pitre: doesn't, it doesn't. The one thing I will stress, and I do say it doesn't guarantee success.

[00:45:32] Erika Davis-Pitre: It doesn't guarantee a good outcome. It doesn't. If your goal is to, I wanna be well connected, have children who you know appreciate me and appreciate our lives and all of that stuff, nine times outta 10, it happens. It, there's absolute appreciation, there's absolute, it's a joy fest. And then that 10% happens where it's not a good fit, where they're angry and they think [00:46:00] they missed, and they blame you for their untraditional lifestyle, making it hard for them to accept traditional whatevers.

[00:46:08] Erika Davis-Pitre: Um. That's okay too. This is not a guarantee for a good life. What this is is a guarantee of a good life that you are living exactly and you're living as best you can for the time you have together. And at the end of the day, they may not appreciate it at all, but you are totally satisfied that you lived a great respectful life.

[00:46:38] Erika Davis-Pitre: So there's no guarantees. And a lot of people at the beginning, they want a guarantee. How is this gonna be better than school? It isn't. There's no guarantee. It's better. The only guarantee I had was I was present in a way I couldn't have been, wasn't for my school kids. We were present in the younger two's [00:47:00] lives in a way we weren't in the older two, we, we just, and we were a very close and are a very close family, but.

[00:47:09] Erika Davis-Pitre: The, the, the way I was present for the youngers was completely different than the ones with the olders because there was so much in between. There was so much action. So I 

[00:47:21] Cecilie Conrad: usually, what I usually say about will it be a, a success? The question is, is more to the note that the idea of what success is will for cer certain change over those years of unschooling your children.

[00:47:38] Cecilie Conrad: Yes. So the idea you have in the beginning of a successful unschooling journey will change. So there's no real reason to worry about it if you're at some starting point with some younger children. And you think, oh, will they, will they become doctors and will they ever be married? And will they know how to [00:48:00] handle themselves?

[00:48:00] Cecilie Conrad: And you know, the worries you can have in the beginning, they will change. Mm-hmm. It'll be different worries you have 20 years later. So it's, it's just some imaginary problem, this success problem. Mm-hmm. Until you start talking about humanity. You talk, start talking about, uh, core values, what's important, what's really mm-hmm.

[00:48:21] Cecilie Conrad: Important and how can we make sure we get that and then we can, you know, fill in some fun and joy, uh, around it, if that was the important thing. Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:32] Erika Davis-Pitre: Um, so, so this, don't, don't, don't try to sell it. Don't try to sell unschooling, radical unschooling. Don't try to sell it. Um, if someone says, what about this?

[00:48:41] Erika Davis-Pitre: What about that? You say, I, for me, I say, oh, I sense those concerns, and I have them all along and still have them now because it never ends. Growth learning never ends. So, yeah, I, I 

[00:48:55] Cecilie Conrad: even tried to sell it, but I still, I, I often get asked [00:49:00] questions about it. Mm-hmm. Like, how do you handle this and how do you handle that?

[00:49:03] Cecilie Conrad: And I wanna do it, but what with this and what with that? And, and then I, I, I usually just say, you need to find out what's right for you and your family, and I'm happy to help you. That's it. Find that out. That's it. So, so that's it. No, I'm not selling it. I, I think unschooling is for everyone who wants to unschool.

[00:49:22] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yes. And 99% of the success at unschooling, to me is wanting it to occur. Yeah. 99%. All the mistakes, all the, all the, all of the, uh, all of the ways. It could have been better. They're all gonna be there. But if you, if you absolutely want this life, if you wanted. Like that last bus of the night, you're chasing it so that you can get back to wherever you're going if you want it.

[00:49:55] Erika Davis-Pitre: That's, that's 99% of this. Mm-hmm. [00:50:00] 1% is how, yeah. 99% is, I want something different. I want something that acknowledges my humanity. I want something that maintains a closeness of my family unit. I want something that helps me expand community. All of that, all of that is such a small part of, I wanna do this.

[00:50:23] Erika Davis-Pitre: The how's the why's, the who's the will they be successful? That all comes later. Yeah. And sometimes it doesn't look successful at all. It looks like, wow. How are they gonna manage what's gonna happen? And then poof. Yeah. It, it, it does, it manages itself. That doesn't mean there isn't unhappiness, uncomfortableness, uh, a lack because there certainly is, there is all of that.

[00:50:56] Erika Davis-Pitre: I I, I harken back to, uh, a [00:51:00] saying that one of my great aunts said, she said all the time, you know, the days are long, but the years are short. Yeah. The days of worry and nervousness of how is this gonna turn out? They seem insurmountable. It seems like you'll never have that answer. You'll always be wondering and then poof.

[00:51:22] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yeah. It's like, oh my goodness. 20 years. 20 years have gone by and they've grown up and it's not perfect, but it is manageable. It is wonderful. It is connected. It it, it is what it is for them. 

[00:51:40] Jesper Conrad: I, I. Yeah, there's something about you saying not selling it. Um, part, part of me feels sometimes or earlier at least, like, uh, uh, you know, one of these, uh, converted, uh, non-smokers or just turn vegan where you just want to walk around [00:52:00] and shout to everybody.

[00:52:01] Jesper Conrad: Wake up, look at how that's really strange, what's going on in the school, and can you please come over here? It's wonderful over here. Mm-hmm. And I, I'm, I'm thinking about the balance sometimes because part of me want to mission in a sense because I, I really want as many people as possible to note the opportunities there.

[00:52:24] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:24] Jesper Conrad: And sometimes. It feels like the easiest way to open their eyes is to point at what is going on. 

[00:52:33] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:33] Jesper Conrad: But that is being negative against school. Mm-hmm. I actually don't want to be super negative against their choices. Mm-hmm. But, but to show the absurdity makes it easier to understand what is going on.

[00:52:45] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. So I'm 

[00:52:47] Jesper Conrad: How do you handle that? Do you go out and mission kind of, uh, 

[00:52:53] Erika Davis-Pitre: you know, for me, answer when people ask me. 

[00:52:55] Jesper Conrad: Yeah. 

[00:52:55] Erika Davis-Pitre: For me, it gets EAs it's easy for me. It's going to [00:53:00] conferences, it's going to summits, it's talking to people who are asking. I, I often remind myself uninvited, um, advice is criticism.

[00:53:15] Erika Davis-Pitre: So I remind myself if it's, if it's uninitiated by the person you're advising. It's gonna be seen as critical of what they're doing. So I try desperately to not be the person who is criticizing what someone else is doing by evangelizing about unschooling. So what I will do with a school parent who's having kind of a rough time, rather than say, you should look into unschooling, I bring the unschooling to them.

[00:53:47] Erika Davis-Pitre: Here's a couple of ways you can make that time better. Here's, here's what the teacher's stress is under. Here's how you can alleviate that stress here. Here's how stressful it is for your child. [00:54:00] Here's how you can alleviate that stress. These are the kinds of coping mechanisms that a child in school needs.

[00:54:07] Erika Davis-Pitre: So I encourage them. All of a sudden, I'm not a combatant. I'm not someone who's offering them something that's opposite of what they're doing. I'm a participant in them being successful where they are. Once you're seen as someone who wants them to be successful where they are, then you can start talking about alternatives and it doesn't seem like a criticism.

[00:54:29] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yeah. So first and foremost, if someone comes up to you and says. For us, it was the S word, socialization. What about socialization? They had this ideal that homeschoolers, unschoolers were in the house just with their parents, which cracks me up. We should not call it homeschooling. We should call it car schooling, park schooling, um, museum schooling, because we were never home.

[00:54:54] Erika Davis-Pitre: We were never at home. But that was the image that people had. Um, evangelical [00:55:00] Christian sitting at a desk talking about Jesus, you know, staying away from the world. They couldn't imagine that how big the world was for our family and for our kids. They couldn't imagine it. Yeah. So rather than beat them over the head with what our reality was, I would say think of it as being on a field trip every day.

[00:55:23] Erika Davis-Pitre: Think of it as experiencing education from that level of excitement. I. Every day. Yeah. Think of it as being in the lab every day. Think of it as being in the shop every day. I always came to where they saw education and expanded their ideal rather than knock what they were doing. So yes, I'm still the evangelical unschooler.

[00:55:47] Erika Davis-Pitre: I'm still trying to tell people, this is such a great life and it would be great for you, but I temper it with where they are so that they can see the opening and they can be seen. [00:56:00] Because if you're, if you have three kids in school, that's, that's a major undertaking. It's, it's, it's a lot of work to have three kids in school.

[00:56:11] Erika Davis-Pitre: And so I saw what they were doing because I did it myself. The reason why I'm, for me. I'm an effective speaker about unschooling and schooling and all the different ways is because I've experienced them all, and I know that if you have to do it this way, there can be joy. You can be connected, you can be, everything can be true.

[00:56:37] Erika Davis-Pitre: It might not be radical, unschooling true, but it can be true. So point out to those naysayers or to those questioners, what kinds of things do you do to make sure you, you have great community for your kids because it can't just be school. So how do you make sure your children are socialized? Your children have [00:57:00] community, your children have good friends?

[00:57:02] Erika Davis-Pitre: I've always said all people, not just kids, but all people, all they need is one good friend. If you have 10, great. But you don't need 10 good friends. All you need is, oh, that should be enough. Yeah. Yeah. Just one. And it could be a sibling. We completely discount friend, uh, familiar friendships. Mm-hmm. We completely discount them.

[00:57:24] Erika Davis-Pitre: I don't understand why we do. If you have a lot in common, your personalities mesh. Encouraging that friendship is rocket science to me. 

[00:57:34] Cecilie Conrad: I mean, yeah. I have four children and I was asked this question loads of times. Yes. Do they have anyone to play with? And I'm like, isn't it

[00:57:48] Erika Davis-Pitre: same? But at the same time, I didn't take, I didn't take for granted that proximity means. Friendship and means all these things. So you [00:58:00] gotta, you gotta balance it out. I didn't assume. Yes, I didn't assume because they're close in age and they lived in the same house and they have the same fabulous parents that they were gonna be close.

[00:58:11] Erika Davis-Pitre: As a matter of fact, the opposite was true for a couple of my kids. Now, as adults, they're all very close. They, they know each other well. They, they can depend on each other. There are a couple of, a couple of my kids, I have four, a couple of my kids, they're not close. They, they, they know of each other and they're there for each other, but they're not close for whatever reason, personality, whatever.

[00:58:34] Erika Davis-Pitre: Um, but they all know they can depend on each other. Um, and they all know that they have the support of each other. So if you're doing this big thing and you need someone cheering you on, there's no one that's gonna cheer you on more than your, than the sibs and their parents. So they know that, but they also know it's okay to not be, you know, close [00:59:00] tight, tight, tight.

[00:59:01] Erika Davis-Pitre: They, they know that, that, that is either welcomed or not based on a whole host of things, not their, their lack. That's the single most incredible thing for me about radical unschooling is the abundance. It's the absolute abundance of time, of friendship, of love, of, of connectedness, that the opportunities were endless for, for that connection.

[00:59:33] Erika Davis-Pitre: And it wasn't based on a social strata or educational opportunity. It wasn't based on any of that. It was pure interest. It's like, um, some of my best friends on Facebook are a good 30, 40 years younger than I'm, because we're interested in the same things. We get excited about the same things. I, my expectation is that, oh, I need to look for a, another older [01:00:00] woman or man to share this interest.

[01:00:02] Erika Davis-Pitre: I can, I can go to a 15-year-old and say, Hey, I see you're doing this. I want in on that, and I'm perfectly comfortable with being rejected or accepted. Perfectly comfortable. The rejection to me says I'm the right kind of person because the person can tell me no. Yeah, yeah. That means, that means it's an open friendship.

[01:00:24] Erika Davis-Pitre: It's an open relationship. 'cause I can be told no, especially when it seems like I have power. The upper hand. If I get told no, I'm hurt because I really wanted it to happen. But I'm also pleased because I'm that kind of friend. I'm not the the yes friend that's grumbled about later, but I'm also really psyched when a young person says to me, sure.

[01:00:47] Erika Davis-Pitre: I, I'd love to have you do this, that and the other with me. It's, it's, it's that yin and yang of abundance. I'm constantly looking for grace. 

[01:00:56] Cecilie Conrad: It opens a lot of options and a lot of [01:01:00] combinations of options. Yes. And, uh, uh, it's, it's, as I said, it's like entering this fantasy world that this looks, looks, and feels and tastes so different from the one that we had before inside the box.

[01:01:15] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. Are you sitting on a question? 

[01:01:17] Jesper Conrad: Yeah, I am. Well, no, no, no. The reason we had, the reason you're doing a podcast beside we love to talk to you is also that there are some people hopefully out there listening and. Uh, for those of them who are like, oh, this unschooling, is that a road I want to travel?

[01:01:38] Jesper Conrad: Uh, is it right for me? What would your advice be to them? Um, two, 

[01:01:44] Erika Davis-Pitre: two things. Depending on where you live, uh, if you live, if you live, um, like say in the States, um, if you live in the United States, get, get to an unschooling conference. Go to a conference, [01:02:00] make it your family vacation one year. Um, and, and don't, um, just go during the day.

[01:02:08] Erika Davis-Pitre: I mean, if you can, if you can afford it, if you can work it out, um, go stay in the conference, hotel, just walk around and, and look at the connections and look at the way, um, the people who. Are doing it and doing it successfully. Look how they move in the world. Look at it, the interactions. Um, in, in, in Europe there's quite a few little, uh, unschooling popups.

[01:02:36] Erika Davis-Pitre: There's conferences, there's camping trips, there's different ways to connect. I've been to a couple of them. Yeah. So, um, being around unschoolers in their natural habitat, that tends to, that tends to do it. Let call sleeping bed. That tends to do it. That tends to do it[01:03:00] 

[01:03:01] Erika Davis-Pitre: Also to join, um, join, join groups online. You know, um, there are unschooling groups online, on Facebook, on there are Yahoo groups. There are all kinds of groups, um, that talk about unschooling answering questions in real. Time. Um, I know of five or six unschooling groups that are on Facebook. Um, a couple of them, especially the radical unschooling, they are, they're not handholding, handholding, coddling places.

[01:03:33] Erika Davis-Pitre: They're, this is, this is how it's done, kind of places. Walk through those places. Don't say anything. Don't contribute. Don't just read. There's such a wealth of information from reading and, and looking at what it looks like. And don't look at grown unschoolers as the example of it working. [01:04:00] Look at the people that are in the, in the thick of it.

[01:04:03] Erika Davis-Pitre: Look at people who have, um, teens that don't know if they're gonna go to college or not, don't know if they're gonna open their own business or not. Don't know if they wanna leave their parents nest or not. Look at the connection in making those kind of choices and decisions. Don't look at the successes, look at the nitty gritty, look at how those families live with each other and make decisions based unschooling.

[01:04:30] Erika Davis-Pitre: Curiosity on that versus, oh, look at that person. She went to Harvard. Oh, look at that person. She went to Oxford or Cambridge. Get away from that box. Of looking at unschooling as a way to get to something. Yeah. Right. Don't look at the outcomes. Look at the, the internal workings. Look at how things are negotiated in families that are, that are adjusting to changes in need.[01:05:00] 

[01:05:00] Erika Davis-Pitre: There. My son was completely different at Park days than he was when he was trying to find his first job. It was a completely different animal. And, um, and looking at Park Day, that was all success. That was just glorious because there was nothing at stake. But looking at when he was trying to get his first job, that was a lot of work.

[01:05:25] Erika Davis-Pitre: That was a lot of work. And the connection helped. So he didn't feel defeated. He didn't feel like, I'm never gonna get what I want. He, he knew that it was gonna be work, and he knew that his partners. My, myself and his family, we were behind him a hundred percent. Mm-hmm. So we moved through that transition easily, even though it was hard on him, we moved through it together easily.

[01:05:53] Erika Davis-Pitre: So it's, it's hard to tell someone who's in a system [01:06:00] that's so different from the system we're in to tell them, take the sleep because it might be better, but that's really the answer. It might be better, it's better for us, might not be for them, it might not be for us in a, in a few months or years.

[01:06:19] Cecilie Conrad: Exactly. So the thing is also oftentimes it seems like when we answer this question that it's like, it's, it's a lifetime sentence. Once you, you, you, you decide to unschool, there's no going back. And for quite a long time It is. Sure. It's. Yeah. Um, you can go back if you want. I think maybe we have passed the point of no return.

[01:06:44] Cecilie Conrad: Like our kids are now so much their own that maybe never say never, but I never say never. If they want to, yes. But I couldn't probably not [01:07:00] tell them, lemme put, lemme put it to you way in mind. Now you have to go to school. They'd be like, okay, I'm not doing it. Try to make, but a very long time you can go back.

[01:07:13] Cecilie Conrad: So if you decide to unschool, you can unschool for a while and then you can go back to homeschooling and then you can even go back to school if you want to. Mm-hmm. It's not like it's something you, it's not like it's a two, it, it, it, you know. No, you just reverse the decision if it feels 

[01:07:28] Erika Davis-Pitre: wrong. Well, this is the thing.

[01:07:31] Erika Davis-Pitre: It's not even reversing the decision. It's moving into something else. Yeah. So my bi schooler, I call him 'cause he went to school, he went to a democratic free school. He was homeschooled, unschooled, and then went to a traditional high school and college. For him, there wasn't a quarter life crisis because the whole time he was making choices and every choice he made was supported.

[01:07:57] Erika Davis-Pitre: So when he decided, mom, I [01:08:00] don't wanna unschool anymore. I wanna go, I wanna go to traditional high school. My first instinct was, oh my God, I failed. He's, he's, he's wanting to go. And then I calmed myself and said, no, I absolutely achieved my goal. Because he's responsible for his education, he's responsible for those choices.

[01:08:24] Erika Davis-Pitre: All I can do is support those choices. Yeah. So rather than say, okay, you're on your own. If you choose school, you've gotta get good grades and this, that and the other. I said to him, what can I do to support you? I wanna make sure you have the best experience possible. I'm not gonna make you do your homework.

[01:08:42] Erika Davis-Pitre: I'm not gonna be the enforcer of this. 

[01:08:44] Cecilie Conrad: This 

[01:08:45] Erika Davis-Pitre: is not, this is not my ideal. If you need help with your homework, if you want me to help you, I will. But I'm not gonna be the person that says, Hey, you got a paper due, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I never had to be that person because he had chosen it. [01:09:00] 

[01:09:00] Cecilie Conrad: We actually had a child who asked us to be that person.

[01:09:04] Cecilie Conrad: Yes. Who would come home from school. We have one child who's been to school, the oldest. Sure. She chose to stay when, when, you know, she just wanted, it was also, it was an alternative free school. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and she came home and she said, I don't wanna do my homework. And we said, okay. Do something else.

[01:09:24] Cecilie Conrad: And she said, you know, you're the parents, you're supposed to tell me to do it and I don't wanna do it. And I, I'm supposed to be here in the kitchen with my tea and my sandwich and say, I don't wanna do my homework. And then you are supposed to nudge me and say, oh, you should do your homework. And we told her we can't do that because you know, we are gonna be honest with you and we don't care if you do it or not.

[01:09:51] Cecilie Conrad: Uhhuh. So that was a really, really weird experience. But you know what I did? I did the same thing. 

[01:09:57] Erika Davis-Pitre: I did the same thing that you did. [01:10:00] And I was the person that said, Hey, do you have any homework? You probably wanna get it done before you do something else. And that was the, the extent of it. Sometimes they want what they think is supposed to be.

[01:10:17] Erika Davis-Pitre: Anytime my kid said, you as the parent should do this, this, this, and this. I would ask the question, why do you think that is? And then they give me the examples and then I would tell them, that's not the kind of parent I want to be. But if that is the kind of parent you need, why don't we work out a language where you get what you need, but understand and recognize it's not important to me, but if it's important to you, I will help you with that.

[01:10:48] Erika Davis-Pitre: So I didn't, I didn't say, Hey, whatcha doing? I didn't get confrontational. But I did say when they came in, do you have [01:11:00] any homework? You probably wanna get it done before you do something else. Oh, thanks mom. If they did it, I didn't care. But the number one thing I did when my son went to school is I met with every one of his teachers and said, I really don't care if he fails.

[01:11:18] Erika Davis-Pitre: If he fails at this, I really don't care. He's here because he wants to be here. Yeah. And I'm here because he wants to be here, but I am not your police. I will not enforce your rules. I don't believe in homework. I think it's antiquated and silly. Uh, I don't believe in failure. Every learning opportunity is just that, a learning opportunity.

[01:11:41] Erika Davis-Pitre: Whether he gets it or not, I don't care. Yeah. So no notes home, none of that. I'm not gonna threaten him. I'm not. I'm not. I'm only here because he wants to be here, and I [01:12:00] hope he walks away from the system. But I will encourage him and I will help him to have a successful experience here, but I will not be your enforcer.

[01:12:11] Erika Davis-Pitre: Do you know what it did for all those adults? They worked hard because they wanted to retain him. He was a commodity to them rather than a burden, rather than somebody, you know, that they had to push course. Whatever they recognized. If he's not interested in engaged, nothing's coming to him. For me. Oh, they were so engaged.

[01:12:36] Erika Davis-Pitre: It's been what? Almost 20 years since he graduated high school. I'm no longer in the town where he went to high school, but every once in a while I go back to visit. If I run into one of his former teachers or anybody that had connection with him in high school, they still, oh my goodness. He was so [01:13:00] engaged.

[01:13:00] Erika Davis-Pitre: He was so engaging. He was such a joy to have in class. And I'm like, thanks. He got good grades because he wanted to be there. He didn't waste time. He didn't waste time, um, you know, complaining about a paper. It's about another whatever. 

[01:13:18] Cecilie Conrad: I think this story is about another core word in the unschooling language, which is, uh, education has to be voluntary.

[01:13:29] Cecilie Conrad: And, and Absolutely. So also as, as I said before, I have a child who's been to school and taken by now several educations and, and all of it was because she wanted to, and that is a completely different game. Mm-hmm. When, when you choose, you want to learn something and you choose, it's worth it, I'll go into this institution because it will give me these options and these experiences and this piece of paper that I actually really want and need for something else I wanna do [01:14:00] Precisely then, then it's, it's not about me, uh, convincing them or judging them or.

[01:14:08] Cecilie Conrad: Threatening them or anything like that. Your son's story is just like, our daughter's story actually is very, very parallel. Um, yeah, it's funny. And he was very 

[01:14:19] Erika Davis-Pitre: successful in high school and he's very successful at college and he is employed and he's on his, you know, he's living his life the way he sees his life.

[01:14:30] Erika Davis-Pitre: There were times when we were questioned, you know, um, by, by our unschooler. You should have done this and you should have done that. 'cause this makes it harder for me to do this. And it makes it harder for me to do that. And you know what that tells me? It doesn't matter how, how you live your life as a parent, uh, a grandparent, a partner, friend.

[01:14:51] Erika Davis-Pitre: There always will be something that could have been done different, better, best. There always will be. I'm just secure in the [01:15:00] knowledge that I was present and I was accommodating and I made. I made our family's learning situation palatable and, and encouraging and real by saying, what do you need? I never hid behind the dogma.

[01:15:23] Erika Davis-Pitre: When the kids said I wanted to go to, I wanted go to school, more important than anything was my relationship with that kid. It wasn't being right as a radical unschooler, it was how is this gonna affect the relationship with my kid? 'cause he only has one mother, he only has one mom. And what do I want that to look like?

[01:15:44] Erika Davis-Pitre: Do I want that to look encouraging and helpful? Do I want that to look static and traditional? What do I want that to look like? And for me it was the trust. The trustee could do it. The trustee wanted to do it. I loved the [01:16:00] fact that I was challenged. I loved it because to me, that meant I was the greatest mom on earth because they didn't do the way I wanted it done.

[01:16:09] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yeah. They, they forged their own path. That is the biggest compliment to me as a radical unschooler, to see them make different choices than I would've made for them or with them. Yeah. 

[01:16:21] Jesper Conrad: Erica o Often when we talk unschooling, we talk about the kids. Um mm-hmm. But in, in my world, it has opened so many doors.

[01:16:33] Jesper Conrad: And so the whole, for me, my lu to learn have reignited on such a big level. Mm-hmm. So if we can talk a little about the unschooling, the joys for the parent. 

[01:16:45] Cecilie Conrad: Where, 

[01:16:45] Jesper Conrad: where were you biggest, when you look back some years ago, you had a, a school, a uh, a teen in the house. Mm. Where where was you like, ah, that was the best, or, this is what I've taken from it.

[01:16:59] Jesper Conrad: [01:17:00] What do you bring forward? 

[01:17:02] Erika Davis-Pitre: Quite frankly, the biggest, um, beneficiary to our unschooling family is the relationship between my husband and myself, because the ability to give grace, um, if it isn't seen and lived by your kids, it's artificial. So when in, in the process of letting my kids make choices about themselves and where they wanted to be educated and how they wanted to live, I also gave that same grace and experience to my partner, and he also gave it to me.

[01:17:33] Erika Davis-Pitre: So our relationship looks pretty traditional, um, on the surface, but the underpinnings, there's so much cooperation. There's so much being seen, there's so much, there's so much opportunity for me to be untraditional in other areas. Um, I. That I've been able to take on different things. I, uh, you know, speaking at the World School, [01:18:00] um, family summit all over the world, um, traveling all over the world, all over the country, um, that I don't think that would've been possible 35 years ago in the traditional sense, because I didn't see myself as someone that could just take the bull by the horns and run with it.

[01:18:18] Erika Davis-Pitre: And I don't know if I would've gotten the, the, the same kind of support from my partner to, to, to be out in the world. But what we learned by giving our children that kind of freedom and that kind of, um, choice and opportunity, we were also able to give it to ourselves. So, oh gosh, we grew up, born and raised, both my husband and myself, born and raised in Seattle, Washington, in these states.

[01:18:47] Erika Davis-Pitre: And, um, a job opportunity came. For my husband in Connecticut on the whole other side of the country. So I'm 3000 miles away. And so we moved, [01:19:00] my daughter stayed in Seattle 'cause she was 19 and in college, so she had no interest in in moving. But the three sons and, and I moved and, um, two of the, two of our sons went to college in, in, in the northeast, in Boston.

[01:19:18] Erika Davis-Pitre: Um, they, they, uh, they, they, they made a life for themselves there. Um, I just did not, it didn't click with me. It just, I, I, I'm not a East Coast person. The vibe is completely different. Lifestyle's, completely different. But my spouse had a great job there, um, and really took to it. He really liked New England.

[01:19:45] Erika Davis-Pitre: He liked living in Connecticut. I didn't, so I said to him, look, I'm gonna move back west. And I'll come back east, I will come back east, uh, on a regular basis, but I, I don't wanna [01:20:00] live in, in the northeast anymore. And he said, okay, and find a place and, you know, I'll, I'll apply for transfer and we'll work it out.

[01:20:14] Erika Davis-Pitre: You know, four and a half years we were back commuting. It was a commuter relationship. I was going, coming and going. I was back. I was back east every eight to 12 weeks. I'd be at the house for four or five weeks and then I'd be off again. And I attribute unschooling for him seeing me for what I needed and not taking it as a rejection of him, or a statement of our relationship.

[01:20:45] Erika Davis-Pitre: Him just saying, um, that's what you need. I'm gonna, I'm gonna help you achieve what you need. It was so elevating of our relationship. It just, it took it [01:21:00] to the next level. He got his transfer. He ended up moving to San Francisco. We live in San Francisco. The, the last six years we've been here six years, this month.

[01:21:11] Erika Davis-Pitre: Um, they have just been like magic. It's like every once in a while I pinch myself because there's so much support, there's so much love. There was so much effortlessness in the move. It, there was no angst. There was no, don't you love me anymore? You know, all of this stuff that comes from when you're making different choices for yourself versus your partner.

[01:21:39] Erika Davis-Pitre: It was total connectedness. It was total support. It was total love, and it was the greatest example for our kids. Of how this thing works. Doesn't matter how you educate your kids, it doesn't matter how you live your life. You can always be that person that a hundred percent [01:22:00] supports your partner, your family, your community, in getting what they their needs met.

[01:22:05] Erika Davis-Pitre: And so they got to see that real time and I got to live it real time. And so the joy that I feel in taking advantage of what I offered my children is the greatest gift I gave it to myself. And by my example, all of my children and grandchildren now have that as the example. Do what you need to do to live your best life and to be connected to your people.

[01:22:35] Erika Davis-Pitre: Listening to your people, making sure your people are happy with the choices that you collectively are making together. It's not just talk. I lived it. That's, to me, that was the single largest gift of unschooling was that I unschooled myself. I gave myself permission to live better, to live more [01:23:00] connected to myself.

[01:23:01] Erika Davis-Pitre: I gave myself that permission and in turn, it was a gift that I gave my whole family. 

[01:23:07] Cecilie Conrad: So, oh, that is the beauty of it. 

[01:23:09] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yeah. 

[01:23:10] Cecilie Conrad: Is it, I feel very much like a d ble in this conversation. Usually we talk and talk, but this is great 

[01:23:20] Erika Davis-Pitre: because you have so 

[01:23:21] Cecilie Conrad: much to offer. Beautiful. Erica. Thank you. I'm just thinking maybe even though I could listen for the next six hours maybe.

[01:23:31] Cecilie Conrad: Yes, yes, yes. Um, to all the gold and, you know, as we're in Europe, six hours from now will be 

[01:23:38] Erika Davis-Pitre: Yeah. 

[01:23:39] Cecilie Conrad: Quite late anyway. Yeah. Should we maybe. 

[01:23:42] Jesper Conrad: Should we 

[01:23:42] Cecilie Conrad: wrap 

[01:23:43] Erika Davis-Pitre: it up? We should wrap it 

[01:23:44] Jesper Conrad: up and then reconnect another date. I think 

[01:23:46] Erika Davis-Pitre: we should do it. Take two. I got one thing. I've got one thing to say. Do it and I try to say it, um, often in an hour in person.

[01:23:58] Erika Davis-Pitre: I try to say it often in [01:24:00] person, but um, definitely in a podcast. Um, you do meet such a great honor to ask me to speak about my passion, so I really appreciate it because I'm gonna reach a whole different. Um, set a group of people that are in community with me because they're in community with you, and anybody I'm in community with becomes a part of my community and, and their community's become a part of my community.

[01:24:25] Erika Davis-Pitre: So I really appreciate you opening me up to a whole new community of connection, of, of choice, of humanity, of love, because more than anything, what I felt from you and your family when I first met you was, man, there's a lot of love. They have so much love and passion about love, um, that they're gonna go far.

[01:24:51] Erika Davis-Pitre: They're, they're just, it, it's, it's like a, you know. It's like a star. You're so bright and so welcoming. And when you, [01:25:00] when you wrote me and said, Hey, we wanna do a podcast with you, that's just such a high honor for me because it means that I touched you in a way and I related to you in a way that you both related to me.

[01:25:13] Erika Davis-Pitre: So I, I so appreciate you. Um, and another thing for unschoolers, for schoolers, for parents, please think about this when you're talking with your kids, and I don't care how old they are, get in the habit of saying this. Do you wanna know what I think? Or do you want support in your ideals? 'cause it might not be the same thing if they say, I wanna know what you think.

[01:25:42] Erika Davis-Pitre: Be very honest. Even if it's hurtful, be very honest with what you think. If they say they want support in their ideals, try to find a way to support their ideal. If you can't tell them that, I would love to support this, but I [01:26:00] can't go to prison now, your younger siblings need parents as an example. Yeah, yeah.

[01:26:06] Erika Davis-Pitre: Try to remember to pause when you're asked something, even if it's a great yes. Even if you can say yes right away, even if you can say no right away, pause. Ask them, can I have a few minutes to think about it so that they get in the habit of you being thoughtful so they get in the habit of you not knowing the answer right away.

[01:26:29] Erika Davis-Pitre: Because most young people, children think their parents know everything because we answer so quickly when we know yes or no, always pause. Hmm. Can I think about that? Even if it's a yes. Hmm. Can I think about that? Even if it's a no, can I get back to you in a couple minutes? I just need to think about it.

[01:26:51] Erika Davis-Pitre: It helps them, it's very model that 

[01:26:53] Cecilie Conrad: behavior. Mm-hmm. It also gives you a few minutes to about [01:27:00] which, 

[01:27:00] Erika Davis-Pitre: to be honest, sometimes you need that. You need it and, and it doesn't seem odd and they're not ready on the defense because you've always paused to either say yes or no. So the pause when you really need it is isn't out of the ordinary.

[01:27:16] Cecilie Conrad: It's very valuable in those moments. So those really good pieces of advice. I remember the first one from the summit where we originally met. Yes. When you. 

[01:27:28] Erika Davis-Pitre: And try to, and try to do that. Try to do that with everybody in your life. Not just your children, but especially your children. What you need. 

[01:27:35] Cecilie Conrad: Do you need my support or do you wanna know what I think?

[01:27:37] Cecilie Conrad: Mm-hmm. Might not be the same. I remember you saying that. I thought about it. And be honest. If they say, 

[01:27:43] Erika Davis-Pitre: I wanna know what you think. Even if they're gonna get angry with what you think, be honest. Because the most important thing is you to say it 

[01:27:51] Cecilie Conrad: in a nice way. Mm-hmm. I mean, don't, yeah. You can say it nicely, but be honest.

[01:27:56] Cecilie Conrad: I try. But you don't have to. [01:28:00] So should we try to say goodbye? Yeah. Or like say, see you next time in the Erica Podcast. Take two. In a few months. 

[01:28:10] Erika Davis-Pitre: Oh, yes, yes. 

[01:28:11] Cecilie Conrad: Because there's so much to explore here with you. We could go on, but I think it might be too long if we can 

[01:28:18] Jesper Conrad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's, yes. 

[01:28:19] Cecilie Conrad: So thank you for your kind words about, um.

[01:28:24] Cecilie Conrad: Feeling honored. It was hard to say thank you while you said it. So I say it now. And, um, thank you for being our community, part of our community. We know we can rely on you even with the, all the water and all the waters and a big inspiration. And thank you for, uh, yeah. Shining so bright. It's, it's amazing thing to have someone like you send me a link to 

[01:28:50] Erika Davis-Pitre: send me a link to the podcast.

[01:28:53] Erika Davis-Pitre: Do do any, do any editing you need to do? No, there will be none. [01:29:00] Okay, then we, we definitely have to say goodbye.

[01:29:06] Erika Davis-Pitre: So thank you so much for having me. 

[01:29:11] Jesper Conrad: Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed today's episode, and if you like that, then please share it with all your friends and family. We would also love it if you gave our podcast a review. Thanks, and if you want to support our podcast and work, then you can find us on pune.com/the Conrad Family.

[01:29:29] Jesper Conrad: We will continue to travel full time, and if you want to tack along, then please follow us on Facebook and Instagram at the Conrad family, and you can also read more than a hundred blog posts on our website, the conrad.family. Until next time, make a wonderful day. Thank you.

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