127: Why We Chose Nomadic Freedom for Our Family | The Conrads & Jamie Rumble

Autogenerated Transcript

Jesper Conrad: 0:10

Today we are together with Jamie Rumble. One day there came a message in our inbox saying hey, I'm doing a master's and I would love to interview you guys for it, and I just said yes, but could we then also use it as a podcast recording? So today I will actually hand over the baton to you, jamie, to make things work, and then we will chat back and forth and hopefully we have some answers for your question. But first, what is your master's about?

Jamie Rumble: 0:44

Thank you so much for this opportunity. It's been actually really challenging to find digital nomads to participate in this study, digital nomads to participate in this study and I'm speaking to you from the unceded ancestral territory of the Mi'kmaq people here in Nova Scotia, canada. Specifically, I'm in Gasparo, which is just down the road from Gluskap First Nation, and I started my master's quite a few years ago actually with Cape Breton University here in Nova Scotia, and it's a master's in education focusing on sustainability, creativity and innovation. And for my thesis I decided to focus on digital nomads and how they're adapting to climate change and what lessons can be shared with educators from the digital nomad community, mostly because I believe that we are moving because of climate change and climate collapse. We are moving into a we are moving into a nomadic future, essentially, or a semi-nomadic future. I believe that extreme climate events will actually cause a lot of the human population on the planet to actually have to become nomadic or semi-nomadic, because parts of the planet will be uninhabitable for parts of the year, or perhaps for millennia, we just don't know. So that's kind of the motivation for choosing digital nomads.

Jamie Rumble: 2:29

I read a book about a year ago somewhere around here called Nomad Century, where it kind of outlined a little bit this similar type thought. Mostly, the thought from that book was that we were going to have to move to the northern hemispheres, that those would be really the only habitable places left on Earth. That's uncertain, though, because the AMOC, the Atlantic Current, is currently breaking down. We're not really sure how that's going to affect global climate patterns, weather patterns, yeah. So that's kind of a little bit of the background of my motivation to reach out to digital nomads, and I'm hoping that this interview can be a little bit of a weaving of ideas and philosophies. And I'm really, really interested to learn about your digital nomad story and how you yourselves have been adapting to climate change or your vision of that as a potential future, your vision of that as a potential future.

Jesper Conrad: 3:36

So climate for us is something I think we have been joking about, not the climate but we have said that we were Climate refugees.

Jesper Conrad: 3:53

Yes, because Denmark is uninhabitable in the winters. We actually had a doctor a family doctor, many, many years ago, said to us so you shouldn't live in Denmark from around October till May and that was based on his 40 years of being a practicing doctor because he said that is where all the illnesses come, that is where people get sick. And a couple of years after he said that we took it to heart. But not because of that, we started traveling of different reasons. But we like to be outside. We like to be in a climate where you enjoy being outside. So Spain is too hot in July. We have tried. Denmark is wonderful in the summer, but actually also quite cold sometimes. So not to challenge your idea, but I think that we maybe have inhabited places that was too cold in the first place, where we came from a nomadic culture, and maybe it wasn't meant that we should live in Denmark in the winter.

Jamie Rumble: 5:02

Yeah, I totally agree and that's part of my. I guess my thesis exploration and part of the philosophy behind why and what I'm studying is based on the premise that, yes, I believe that humans were originally nomadic. We followed the seasons, we followed the animals and I feel myself personally. I went to Japan in 1999, partly because I had a desire to leave the nine-to-five grind and I was motivated to explore all of Southeast Asia. I thought I ended up staying in Japan for 17 years, loving it, and actually I'm planning to go back to teach and it was kind of a jumping off point for me, even leaving and then getting into this study, because my final teaching job I was teaching at a junior high school there and was teaching English but was actually teaching global studies in English and I found the focus of environmental education in Japan and worldwide for the most part is on sustainable development and that's the United Nations has, you know, their sustainable development goals and that has really been the focus of environmental education for at least the last decade or more.

Jamie Rumble: 6:38

But even when I was teaching there, I found that there was a real lack of critical literacy and critical thinking skills into the eco-pedagogy aspect of my study, the lens that I'm kind of looking at digital nomadism through is eco-pedagogy and planetary citizenship, which is connected to the Brazilian educator, paulo Freire, who created the pedagogy of the oppressed way back when, and so ecopedagogy is kind of of the same lineage or is the latest iteration of critical literacy education, which could be considered a radical pedagogy, which is challenging traditional education and traditional schooling systems, and the banking education is what he called it, where essentially we are depositing knowledge into students rather than getting them to think critically, and that was something that I really noticed in Japan.

Jamie Rumble: 7:44

That was really problematic for me as a teacher, because I just felt like we're not preparing young people for the potential future that seems to be more and more emergent as we look at the climate news all around us. But I'm also fascinated by your story of becoming climate refugees for health reasons, because that's also something that is kind of emerging as a theme through interviewing people is the mental health and health aspect of nomadic living, both positive and negative. So I think that's a really fascinating aspect of being a nomad.

Cecilie Conrad: 8:23

It's also the critical thinking is. That's a big part of our story. We don't follow the news feed more or less at all. I don't follow it at all, you follow it a little bit and we don't follow the climate change research. I think we have the opinion that there's not much we can do about it, so we put our effort there where we can make an impact and around the things that we're really passionate about and the context climate being one part of context is something we're going to have to adapt to, and adaptability is the center piece of our value system and our focus, and the reason we sold our house and became nomadic and chose to let our three youngest children grow up without a home, without a steady home, growing up moving all the time, was partly adaptability that we thought.

Cecilie Conrad: 9:34

Well, if we can choose where we are, we can choose the context, whereas if you decide to buy a house and you know, accept the school system and the everyday life, the grind like that, the context becomes something that you have to cope with and we think adaptability is a very good thing, but not at any expense. So we can adapt to a lot of different things. Our context change all the time and we have to cope with that. But we don't cope with anything and everything. There are limits and this is a maybe stupid, naive point. But let's say it rains all the time. I can look at the forecast and say, okay, it's not raining over there, let's go and we get into the car and we drive 800 kilometers and then the sun shines. We're happy again. And so if the context is not what we want it to be, we can work on it, but only to a certain extent can I decide what's going on around me, and if I really don't like it, I can leave. And that was a big thing before we became fully nomadic, that we talked about a lot how.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:56

Yes, it's very good to become very good at adapting to whatever hits you, whatever is there. You choose your own happiness and you and you work to put into the system what you can to make the system a good thing. The context whatever is around you. But if it really isn't what you need or make the system a good thing, the context whatever is around you, but if it really isn't what you need, or if it really is negative or wrong or unhealthy or not safe or not nice, then it's very nice to have a setup for life where you can actually just leave. In Danish we have this, this saying. I don't think it translates, but in danish we say if you don't like the smell in the bakery, you're welcome to leave. And that's basically what we do.

Jesper Conrad: 11:45

yeah, to build on that, just so it doesn't come off as we don't do anything for the environment.

Jesper Conrad: 11:52

I have had a couple of years working for Gaia Education, an institution where they create educations and help people how to create ecovillages and alternative societies. But that aside, I think that if you look at the CO2 print of travelers like us, then our van is we have solar power. And if you look at the daily commute for many people even we, even though we are driving from Denmark to Spain from time to time then the daily commute back and forth to work is extremely big on how much diesel and stuff you use, but that is not why we are doing it. On how much diesel and stuff you use, but that is not why we are doing it. It is not, for us, an eco project or a health project. It is more a freedom project. We want to be free and we want our kids to live up without the restraints of what the society deems that the norm is, and we're quite happy with the life we have created. It works quite well for us.

Jamie Rumble: 13:42

Interesting. Yeah, I was going to ask you about some of the adaptations or the environmental impact of living nomadically which you just touched on. And I'm curious, like I read even this morning that the amount of CO2 that a 90 minutes for an oligarch or a billionaire or a billionaire, they create the same CO2 as somebody at the bottom percentile of humanity as they would produce in a lifetime. So there's this massive imbalance.

Jesper Conrad: 14:27

Of course there is, but you can only, as a person, vote with your actions and your money. People can have so many banners and stuff. They're like, hey, we're doing this and this, but it all comes down to what you do in your everyday life. We are primarily plant-based. We live with a small CO2 footprint based on the size we are, and we buy maybe 50% of our clothes or something secondhand. And then if we are in a place where we can choose to buy organic or with a local farmer, compared to buying organic in plastic in a supermarket, then we buy with the local farmer. That is easier when you are in Spain, for example, where the weather is more all around for the produce.

Jesper Conrad: 15:21

So that is one of the things we have talked about in our life is our values. What are our values and can we use our money in accordance with our values? I think if more people did that, then the planet would look different. And I'm sitting here with an iPhone on a MacBook and that doesn't align perfectly with my values because of the production, et cetera, et cetera. So none of us are saints, but we have thought about the things.

Jamie Rumble: 15:56

Yeah, I'm very interested and this is one of the things that I'm noticing and I knew as well for myself because, as I mentioned, I went to Japan in 1999, thinking that I was going to live nomadically or semi-nomadically, traveling around Southeast Asia, and I've watched the technology evolve so like, for example, when I first went to Japan in 1999, there were internet cafes. That was the extent of the technology, and the actual term digital nomad was actually coined by a Japanese person in the mid-90s. His name escapes me right now Makoto, I think Something. It's there, but it's not there. So I hadn't even heard of the term digital nomad when I went to Japan, but I was, you know, connecting with people around the world family, friends through internet cafes, and it wasn't until smartphones, and especially the iPhone in 2006, is when the kind of real digital nomad lifestyle started to emerge as it is now because of the tools. Because of the tools.

Jamie Rumble: 17:17

But yeah, I'm curious, like one of the things that I'm really wondering about with regards to climate change or climate collapse is if digital nomadism is the future of humanity or, you know, large parts of the global population. What I've seen so far is that the digital nomads are essentially fiercely independent and it's one of the motivations for a lot of people to become digital nomads is the independence and freedom. There's an old saying if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far, go together. And so I'm wondering and it's a challenging question how might digital nomadism be scalable for populations rather than individuals or small groups?

Cecilie Conrad: 18:07

It's interesting we just talked about it a few days ago how there's this whole concept of living outside the box and a lot of people talk about escaping the mainstream or the matrix or whatever. But in a way and it's very popular people get very often very interested when they hear about our lives and they ask all the questions and it becomes this oh, it's so fascinating, it's so interesting and how could you do all that Blah blah? In a way, there has to be a matrix in order for us to escape it. There has to be a box in order for me to leave it. And if we all leave the box, then what?

Cecilie Conrad: 18:51

I am driving on the same roads as everyone else, I'm shopping in the same supermarkets, I'm walking into the same art museums. I'm actually enjoying that box quite a lot. I'm just using it in a different way. And I think scalability for digital nomadism well, it's not our lifestyle that would be, I think, scalable. I think there are some initiatives out there people sharing apartments in many different countries and they buy into it and can move around, and there's a lot of people trying to make money off that idea and but. But I think there is this Instagram version of digital nomads with, you know, the laptop and the blue sky and maybe the pool or the beach and the idea of and the very small backpack. I get a lot of ads very small backpacks that can, apparently.

Jesper Conrad: 19:56

A lot of single persons out there, a lot of singles, people actually with small children.

Cecilie Conrad: 20:04

It's quite easy to travel with children under five. People who have children under five think it's very hard, but it's. It's not. But the reality of being nomadic is many different things and it changes all the time. And the reality of being nomadic with a family is a story in and of itself.

Cecilie Conrad: 20:24

But I don't think there is a way to define what it is really to be a digital nomad. What's that? We're all digital, so that's just a nothing word. Basically, to be a digital nomad is to be a nomad, and to be a nomad basically, I suppose, means to be someone who moves around more than those who don't move around, and that's all it is. So you can move every second year to a new place. It could be a new city in the same country and you'd still be nomadic. You could move every week to a new country on the planet. You can only do that for so long, but you can do it for a few years, and that's also being nomadic. So what are we even talking about when we talk about scaling this phenomenon? Because what is it?

Cecilie Conrad: 21:19

That's the question, and we've been doing it for seven years now, with three children and two dogs, so we're a big group. It's not just me and my backpack and my smartphone in my back pocket. There are lots of things to think about, lots of moving parts and lots of people involved, a family moving around, and we've been doing so many different things. So when I say I've been nomadic for seven years and and the next question is so how do you travel? How do you choose where to go? What do you bring? How do you move? We've done all the things, all the things. We've been staying for less than 24 hours in some of our locations and more than 10 months in others. And did we plan it? No, it's working with whatever makes the most sense in the context at the moment, with what we have, with the options and the needs of everyone involved, of everyone involved. So it's very hard to answer the question, because the foundation of the question is we could try to define it, but it wouldn't make sense.

Jesper Conrad: 22:28

Because it would also only be our definition and we cannot be spokespersons for what other people do. So just to be clear, our project is not even a project. We are just a family. We like to travel. We felt as we started homeschooling our kids and Cecilia was at home. We saw in our life that the only thing keeping us in one place was that I went to work. So we looked at hey, can we transfer my income over to becoming online? Then we can be where we want to be.

Jesper Conrad: 23:07

And I think everyone who has been on a holiday or something have been considering why am I going back right now? Why not stay? Then there is the change that it is not vacation, it's not holiday, because you bring work and you end up becoming most often a freelancer, and it is. I am absolutely not complaining, but being a freelancer is also. It makes it difficult to say no to work. It makes it difficult to figure out when are you off work, when are you not on. So there is some other issues there that you maybe work more or less and don't, but you don't vacate in the same way you do.

Cecilie Conrad: 23:47

You're not on vacation we don't do weekends, we don't do pauses, we don't do vacations, we don't take breaks. We we don't separate what we do work, and sometimes it feels like work and we call it work. But we do a lot of different things and some of them have the ripple effect that money come our way. Some of them we do and there's not a lot of money coming our way, and some is fun and some is private life maybe, but it's just not. Our time is not organized under the same constructs. Um, it's definitely not vacation and I think it's very, very hard. If you're not doing it or doing something like that, something in in the region of it, it's very hard to imagine what it is, how it feels.

Jamie Rumble: 25:31

I think it's fascinating how this lifestyle has emerged essentially in my lifetime. I'm a Generation X person and, through my research, obviously nomadism or nomadic lifestyles, I think it's personally the norm. If you look at human history, the last 2,000 years with, you know statism to me that would be the aberration and you know neoliberal politics of the day. There seems to be this tension growing between what you know statism versus nomadism, and what it means to be a human on this planet, what it means to be free. You know the. You mentioned your values and I think that you know we're moving maybe back to education systems that are more about values rather than the banking system where you're, you know, inputting information into students to prepare them for a life as part of the system. And you mentioned the matrix. Right, Kind of got me thinking about decolonization or decolonizing education, where we are essentially decolonizing our minds. Our minds have been colonized and we're taught to live and work in the world in such and such a way, but I'm finding with a lot of digital nomads that part of their process of becoming a digital nomad or a nomad is to decolonize their mind and to live outside the box, as you say. So there's a whole political side to it I think, which is part of it, and the other aspect of it I think is philosophical, which I think you're kind of touching on it, and the other aspect of it I think is philosophical, which I think you're kind of touching on, and that also has a parallel historical, I guess trajectory. So I look at what I've been researching about the early origins of modern nomadism and so I looked at certain films and the zeitgeist, and one of the kind of earliest examples that kind of popped into my mind was the surfing movie Endless Summer, where the surfers, you know they go around the world I think it was in the late 60s, early 70s when they made that movie these privileged, wealthy American surfer type people who are trying to live this lifestyle, the endless summer, where you know it's idyllic. And I think that also contributed to the appeal of being a nomad is that you can actually have an endless summer, and why wouldn't you want that? It sounds amazing and wonderful. But in parallel to that movement there was also a philosophical movement based in France, especially with a philosopher named Deleuze, with his partner Guattari, and they actually created the philosophy of nomadology, which is all about essentially flexible thinking.

Jamie Rumble: 28:47

That thought is emergent and rhizomatic and I think that it has actually taken root for lack of a better word in the global population, that people are kind of waking up and saying I don't want to. The global population, that people are kind of waking up and saying I don't want to necessarily live this linear life. I want to live my life rhizomatically, I want to pop up and, you know, if I want to take root somewhere else, I can do that. I don't need to plant myself and commit myself to living in this one spot.

Jamie Rumble: 29:24

I think that there is this shift happening globally with global consciousness. And I also like to check myself because I don't like to use the word global, because of my background of teaching global studies, because I think when you look at ecopedagogy and planetary citizenship, if I use the word global, it transforms the planet into an object, right, a simple object, a globe. But if I use the word planet, it invokes a whole different mindset, a whole different way of thinking. So that's why my focus is on ecopedagogy and planetary thinking. And eco-pedagogy, with its roots in critical literacy, does include decolonization. You know the pedagogy of the oppressed and so I'm also hearing through you that there was some feeling of oppression being in the status quo system, that that you wanted to escape, or or just I yeah so many tensions I don't know I think,

Cecilie Conrad: 30:35

it can also be kind of a little bit too easy to say that we escape the oppression and we we, we have freed ourselves, and I honestly believe that you can have a very happy and free and critically thinking-based, valuable, passionate life living in a house on a street, your entire life on a street, of your entire life. I think it's a question of personality and of getting clear on your values, knowing what you really want and what you really enjoy and what's right for you and those who are important to you, and I don't want to be saying that this way of living that we have chosen is better than any other way of living. I think the unconscious is better than not being conscious. Thinking is better than not thinking, all real thinking being critical, because that's what thinking is. The other one is reproducing facts, producing facts. So I just want to.

Cecilie Conrad: 31:46

It's not about whether I'm nomadic or not and it's not about some sort of what. To me, it felt like pressure, felt wrong to stay in the same place, but I know that a lot of people find freedom in knowing exactly where the the black pepper is on the shelf and they could find it in the dark, and knowing exactly where to go for a beautiful walk the last week of october, you know, and and there is freedom in that, and there is. We have sacrifices that we have made and there is work we have to do, taking up our time and energy and mind, space and focus and decision making. That is just because we choose to live this life and it's not necessarily always fun.

Cecilie Conrad: 32:45

We, just for the past 10 days, have really laughed more and more about how much time we spend planning, and it's the way we're actually not passionate about planning, but we talk planning a lot and sometimes we're trying to have a cup of tea together in the evening before we go to bed, Just have a little chat. At the end of the day, we live with a lot of different people, a lot of different places and lots of stuff happening, and it's nice to talk to each other actually before we go to bed and so that we succeed to do every I don't know five or six days. It's not like we do it every day, we aim to do it and we try to not talk planning and logistics just for 10 minutes. So much planning and logistics and I'm losing my point.

Cecilie Conrad: 34:08

My point is there's the Instagram nomad and there's the almost self-righteous. You know, almost self-righteous. You know I'm all organic and I broke free from the system and the oppressor didn't get to me all these things and I just think we shouldn't forget that there are sacrifices in this way of living and there is other restrictions and there are things that we cannot do and more things that are easy. If you have a means that now use the word mainstream, but a more life that is recognizable for most people, uh, if you have that, there are certain things that are way easier, and then it's nice that they're easier man we needed an x-ray of an arm three weeks ago.

Cecilie Conrad: 34:58

It took me forever to get to the point of actually putting that arm into that machine. So those things. So yeah, the point being maybe we shouldn't be too judgmental and also not be too compartmentalized about what this is versus what the other is.

Jamie Rumble: 35:18

Yep, yep, I agree, and I think that kind of touches on nomadic thinking, right, Nomadic thinking philosophically, if we look at, like I mentioned, Deleuze and Guattari. They even say you can be nomadic in place. It's all about the thinking, and so I wonder sometimes if this trend growing trend, there are millions of folks who do identify now as digital nomads. I think the last time I checked there was over 30 million worldwide. Oh, wow.

Jamie Rumble: 35:57

There's been predictions that it could grow into the hundreds of millions in the coming years because of climate change, that it'll just be a necessity. But I'm also noticing the way that it's and I don't know which is first, if it's the chicken or the egg type thing. Is it the nomadic thinking that is there or that is kind of like part of our ancient DNA that we do think nomadically, or is it the lifestyle that is actually?

Cecilie Conrad: 36:31

Maybe there were loads of nomads before we called it nomads.

Jesper Conrad: 36:34

Oh yeah, yeah, long time, but where, due to financial resources, it wasn't possible for them to be in a specific place. But people have also traveled like that, where they just went and then they took a job in a kindergarten here and a restaurant there. And in Denmark we have loads of young adults being here for the summer working in cafes, traveling, and it is just easier now with the internet. There were two thoughts I was sitting with. One is nomadic is not being rootless. It is also about having roots in different places, where you come and go and return to places you love and people you love who are in those places. There's something wonderful in seeing a garden grow. I don't think rice we see now, but I come from the Nordic countries so that might be why. But I think the rice has more to do with availability of how you can work and earn money than it has to do with climate, and I'm sorry if that goes against your thesis, but that is my take on it.

Jesper Conrad: 38:04

Then I think there's something to consider about the nuclear family and the decline in family clans and big families and where families were supporting each other. Now we live in smaller and smaller family units. You even see the number of people never getting a family getting bigger. The number of singles are getting bigger, so therefore you can also see maybe a rise there where people don't move as a group. The bigger your group is, the more difficult it gets to move it. The more expensive it gets to move it, the bigger the place you need. We need a place for five and our two dogs and we have a grown-up daughter and her boyfriend. So it's quite a circus sometimes to travel with.

Jesper Conrad: 38:54

And I think that you can also see the rise in digital nomism, just the rise in nomadism as a result of what is happening in society. So with families they're getting smaller. Ergo it is easier to travel, and I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm just saying that's what I see from the side smaller and smaller families. I'm just saying that's what I see from the side smaller and smaller families.

Jamie Rumble: 39:20

I was going to ask you and you just touched on it a little bit the role of community for you personally, and also how you navigate boundaries and all that kind of thing, or any challenges that you've faced with regards to that.

Jesper Conrad: 39:40

So community is everything. We like people. We travel for people. We often say the adventure is the people. One of the things you gain with co-living or being close together and having more time as you are not necessarily in a workplace from eight to four is time to talk. I think that whatever happens between people is often that they don't talk enough, that they don't have the time to talk or they don't say themselves out loud. So it's a question of talking, being together, enjoying each other's time, doing stuff together and then saying yourself out loud. You just get used to it. It is not super difficult, but you need to get used to talking with people about what you like, what you don't like, and then don't take it personal.

Cecilie Conrad: 40:39

I don't think it's been hard to find community. No, I think that it's a question. We get a lot, whether we are lonely in one way or the other, and our life is overflown by people. There are so many people and it's been like that for the most part of our travels that we meet people. Very, very quickly. After we became fully nomadic, we started saying the real adventure is the people, because it really is. It's not about the places we go, it's about the people we meet fills my heart just thinking about it right now Overwhelmingly amazing, awesome people that we met and who has been part of filling our life with joy and wisdom and presence and beauty, including the beauty of friendship and love, and we are very grateful for that.

Cecilie Conrad: 41:50

And it happens spontaneously, obviously good things in life. It's worth putting some attention into making sure they are good, making sure that that we do our part, that we do what we can to maintain good communities and create good communities. We're very good at creating happy days with lots of people. That's what we do. So where it looks on the surface like if you pull the plug and start moving around, how can you maintain relationships? But the reality of it for us has been clearly that our relationships have become better and powerful. We met not that the friends were left behind whom we still see and maintain relationships with were not awesome, but we met more awesome people than I can hardly have them in my space, you know.

Cecilie Conrad: 42:43

Sometimes I literally sit down and write a list Not of everyone I know, but just okay.

Cecilie Conrad: 42:51

There's actually all of these people that I want to get back to within this week, and it's a lot, and I'm not a big fan of spending a lot of time on my computer or my smartphone, but one of the things those two machines can do is to keep me in contact with those who are not in my present location.

Cecilie Conrad: 43:10

It's a lot and it's amazing, and there's a lot to cooperate around with people we meet who are also choosing a life based on their values, choosing a life that might be different from what would have been expected of them. So we have that in common with the people we meet and the people we choose to spend our time with, and that sparks very interesting conversations but also a lot of support. We know how important it is to have a good friend, so our good friends take the time to help us with the things where they can help, and we do the same the other way around, and the urgency that's built into our lifestyle, the fact that I'm not here three months from now I'm here now ensures that we do these things.

Cecilie Conrad: 44:08

We're not putting it off, we do it now or like, put it okay. So tomorrow morning we're having coffee and we're discussing that thing that we need to talk about. Where I can help you because I have some special knowledge yes, let's go 930 that cafe and then we're doing it, and I think that's a very good benefit. It's not hard.

Jesper Conrad: 44:28

It's just different. No, nomadism helps you prioritize life in a good way. Can I take it back to the colonization which is I've been considering my own journey from living the more nine to five lives and my journey is different than my wife's because she was at home and had been more rebellious soul than I have, but I was the one going to work, et cetera.

Cecilie Conrad: 44:59

Making it possible for me to be very rebellious.

Jesper Conrad: 45:06

And we have been grateful for the arrangement both of us.

Cecilie Conrad: 45:09

I'm just not fooling myself.

Jesper Conrad: 45:10

No, no, but being grateful for the arrangement both of us. So I can see when I decided to go on this path. I started out by needing to have a more negative definition of what I left and I think that, being now seven years down the road, I don't do that. I can see what's kind of some mental crutches I had to move myself away from what I thought life was. Then I criticize something to release myself from it. I think it's a very natural thing. I think that most people go through it. You see it all the time in divorces, et cetera, where people end up thinking they don't like each other just because it's not right for them, and then later on they can figure out to work again, et cetera.

Cecilie Conrad: 46:00

Some of them.

Jesper Conrad: 46:01

Some of them, some of them just didn't fit.

Cecilie Conrad: 46:04

My parents never talked again.

Jesper Conrad: 46:06

No, no. But to go back to my thought about it, so sometimes today, when I hear about decolonization and being oppressed, I'm like oh, and I of course speak from a 50-year-old white male perspective.

Cecilie Conrad: 46:22

From one of the richest countries of the planet, from one of the richest countries of the planet. And happiest country.

Jesper Conrad: 46:27

Yeah, yeah yeah, so I know what privilege my life has been. I've been born in a good place? Yes, absolutely, but that is my perspective. I have never been oppressed. If I have been oppressed, can I have been oppressed?

Jesper Conrad: 46:47

It has been by my mind, by myself, but I needed someone to put the blame on when I needed to find the strength to move away from what I thought everyday life should be. And that is sometimes what I see, this kind of eschew system where it's someone else's fault that your life is like that, and I just don't take the premise any longer. I can see that I did some of it myself. I needed to strengthen my belief in what I felt was the right way for me, and I needed to do it by being negative and against something. But society never came to me and say hey, jesper, please don't travel, come back to work. No one had a grasp of me.

Jesper Conrad: 47:35

Okay, no, but most of what made made me, it was in my mind and I. There's never been anyone saying come, you need to be in denmark working all the time, and and so the whole oppressed thing, it is by ourselves. And then you, of course, can try to take it on a different level and say have that, that been installed with you, with the banking of the school system, etc. You are a free person. If you are over 18, 20 years old, you're free to think your thoughts, and even from childhood. Yeah, all the way, yeah. But I mean at some point, when you are grown up, please take responsibility for your own life and to stop blaming people and just do what you find is the good thing to do.

Jamie Rumble: 48:25

The topic of oppression and decolonization and this is something that the educator Paolo Freire talks about is so we've got the oppressors, you've got the oppressed, and then there is a role for people to play who may have been oppressors. And so the quote that kind of comes to mind is we are not free unless we're all free. Responsibility on people who are of the quote-unquote oppressing, or oppressor rather than being oppressed, is there a responsibility, if you are a privileged person, to commit yourself to the liberation of the people who are oppressed, for example, the people who are in Spain when it's too hot to live, or the people who are in the sub-zero temperatures, when it's miserable and impacting their physical and mental health, people who don't have the privilege or the capacity to live as freely, I guess you know. So that quote we are not free unless we're all free which is kind of very timely.

Jesper Conrad: 49:53

I still don't see who the oppressor is. Is it the school teacher as well? Is it the guy working in the bank who is saying yes to people whose job it is to talk? Well, that's linked to taking a mortgage. What I'm saying is all of us are part of a society. Yes, all of us is taking our decisions, all of us is looking out for ourselves, and I think that everybody are free, but that sometimes it is easier to live a life where you believe you aren't free.

Jesper Conrad: 50:28

Of course, there are countries where people live under slave labor kind of thing, but that's not the people I'm talking about now. I'm talking about the ones who have the capacity to talk about their decolonizing, colonizing their mind, etc. And I'm like, oh sorry, you have never been oppressed. Many of you guys I have.

Jesper Conrad: 50:52

When I look at my life, the only thing that have oppressed me is that I grew up in a society with a school with a set way of thinking, where the norm was what the norm was, and when I came to a point where I thought, if I did agree in that norm, then I was free to leave it, there was no one holding me back. That's just my point about it. And then there's, of course you can talk about how organized is it? And I know the whole stories and I know them from way back when I also was on. The school is the enemy and it's created to make people walk in line and take these jobs. I actually think a lot of school teachers Cecilia is back with her coffee schoolteachers Cecilia is back with her coffee I actually think a lot of schoolteachers are doing what they can because they really love teaching and they're people and they really want to do the best for them.

Jamie Rumble: 51:53

We were just having a little segue conversation about oppression and I mentioned the quote we are not free unless we're all free.

Jamie Rumble: 52:04

And I had a question for you, cecilia, because you mentioned earlier about the Instagram nomads, and this is another kind of very large segment of the digital nomad population which seems to be the most popular or visible because of social media. But it's also a big question for me as a researcher is how, in this neoliberal economy and world that people are essentially, especially the Instagram nomads are monetizing their lives. Instagram nomads are monetizing their lives and to me that kind of points back to the topic of oppression, because if you're in the system, you know, the neoliberal economy, where it's all about being an individual, promoting the lifestyle of being an individual, but also you're essentially monetizing your life and every aspect of your life counts for something you know like. You're posting your life in order to make money, and is that not also potentially a form of oppression if you're part of that system where you have to monetize your life through social media? And I'm wondering, sometimes as well, is this contributing to to mental health issues, where we have commodified all aspects of existence, from birth to death?

Cecilie Conrad: 53:40

I think it has a lot to do with mindset, as maybe well as not maybe as everything in this life has a lot to do with mindset. I also want to say that we're not free until everybody's free. I know we have privilege and I know that there are certain circumstances where you could say people are not free. I know we have privilege and I know that there are certain circumstances where you could say people are not free, but on the other hand, we are all free already. It's a question of how much oppression we choose to let affect us and how much we're willing to fight back. On the mindset mindset point of view. We just visited my 101 year old grandmother a few days ago, and one of her sons was in one of the death camps in during the second world war, the one called dachau in poland, and he writes in his journal that one of the things that made him really happy while in Dachau was that he could move freely between the houses and at one point there was an elevation. This is a horrible place.

Cecilie Conrad: 54:56

There was a little elevation so he could get a little bit further up than the rest of the surface of the camp and from there, if he stood on his tiptoes and looked as far as he could on the horizon, he could see the top of one tree and that made him feel free. A lot of these people who survived the camp had that mindset. The camp had that mindset. We were just in Krakow recently and did a deep dive into those horrors and I was reading Primo Levi again. I read it first time when I was 16, 17. I read the whole thing, everything he wrote, and I did it again and it's the same thing.

Cecilie Conrad: 55:40

It's a question of how we cope with what is and of course I respect this too as much as I can extend my, my empathy. The what is can be horrible. It can be beyond what I can imagine. I know that and I'm a cancer survivor. I've been in a quite horrible spot in my own life a few times, one of them being the cancer and this freedom thought it's an illusion in many ways.

Cecilie Conrad: 56:10

You can say that we are more free than other people, but I would say some of them are free in other ways. There are things they don't have to think about, worry about spend their time doing I don't know. There are things they don't have to think about, worry about spend their time doing. There are things they don't need to adapt to. They're free to do whatever, and we have to pay attention to things that other people don't. So it's just, it's this.

Cecilie Conrad: 56:32

It's a bit like when I criticize the movement of nomadism and talk about the Instagram nomads, and they all look the same and they're painting this picture of what it's supposed to be. And there's this whole battle of how many countries have you been this month or this year or in your life or whatever. And I'm like, okay, but what if I've been to 50 different places in this one country and they were all different and amazing? That doesn't get on your list, and then I can't battle you and win this instagram contest. It's and the same thing with the freedom. We talk a lot about freedom and I, I, I am very much for freedom. I just think we have to remember to think about what it really is and what it really is not, and and there's a lot of illusion going on to say that I am more free than my friend I live with here at the farm I live at the moment, who lives in a huge estate. Am I more free than her? I don't know that I am. I don't think I am.

Cecilie Conrad: 57:36

I'm free in a different way and hopefully I'm free in the way I need to be free and she's free in the way I need to be free and she's free in the way she needs to be free.

Cecilie Conrad: 57:43

And if we don't feel that we should do something about it because, that's freedom to be able to realize, when the constrictions are not fit for your personality or the even just where your life is right now, because that's another illusion that I am in this one way and I need this kind of life and I will go on this trajectory trajectory and that will make me happy forever. I wasn't unhappy when I lived in a house. We had an amazing life in hovenhagen before we left and we might even I consider it a little unlikely, but we could settle down at some point. Maybe I don't know.

Jamie Rumble: 58:22

So much of our conversation has centered around values and especially the ethic of freedom, or I would even call it the practice of freedom. And so I'm wondering because I did a little bit of a dive on your podcast and background and the concept of world schooling I'm wondering if you could just share that a little bit. What does that mean for you? How would you describe that?

Cecilie Conrad: 58:51

Well, world schooling is just a great word.

Jesper Conrad: 58:54

It's a fancy name.

Cecilie Conrad: 58:55

It's a fancy name, like nomadism, but it's a great word because for us it came instead of unschooling, which is another big word in our life and world.

Cecilie Conrad: 59:06

schooling makes more intuitive sense to people and they can project more ideas that make sense to them into the word and imagine what our life is, and then we can skip the whole explaining part about how our kids get an education, which is really a relief for us. But world schooling really has no definition and it's a bit like digital nomadism that everyone who does it can come up with what they think it is and do it and call themselves world schoolers. For us. What does it mean? It means to be, I think it's important.

Jesper Conrad: 59:47

No, no, please don't. No, no, I wanted to talk about a point I think that we need to talk about what we call education, and you can say the word I can't Educationese, I don't know what you want to say.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:00:02

the word I can't Educationese. I don't know what you want to say, so that makes it hard.

Jesper Conrad: 1:00:05

So, okay, please follow up on it then when I try to find my phone. So, homeschooling, unschooling, world schooling different words, different meanings. Homeschooling, you can say it's about taking the school home, where you are taking on the role of the teacher, but it looks different in different houses. Then there's unschooling, which John Hall coined, and it's more free and it's not a set definition of what you're teaching. You are living a passionate life, set definition of what you're teaching. You are living a passionate life.

Jesper Conrad: 1:00:45

World schooling in Compass for many people, both homeschooling and world schooling. For some it encompasses putting their kids in school in another country. It is a wonderful umbrella for everything you want to put into it. There is an interesting thing about the mindset of a person like me and others who have went to school that it is that we have a vocabulary and an understanding of what learning is that is based on our, our time in school. And there is this old ein, or it's quoted to Einstein, that, if it's this cartoon where you ask you want to educate a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

Jesper Conrad: 1:01:28

Yes, you're going to fail.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:01:32

So if you want to evaluate the education of a fish. But all of these Einstein quotes are wrong anyway, absolutely wrong.

Jesper Conrad: 1:01:40

We can make them up and say that Einstein said it. No.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:01:43

So maybe you just say what you want.

Jesper Conrad: 1:01:45

Yeah, what I want to say is that for some people, they need to have what we do translated into oh, what did they learn? And then we need to translate it into what they understand as learning based on that they were in school. It is called education needs.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:02:04

Yeah.

Jesper Conrad: 1:02:06

Now I pronounce it correctly.

Jesper Conrad: 1:02:09

Sometimes I'm really shitty at that word. Education needs, yeah, so that would be that we take to make them happy and translate how we live our life into something they can understand. It is not my need, it can be their need. We do not have to go to a home country, as we are fully nomadic, and say our kids have learned this in this different state and translate our life into teaching. We are very free in the sense that we actually just live our life, enjoy, allow life, do what we do, and learning isn't the goal of of our life. Living is the is the goal of our life and we love learning, but it's not the goal.

Jesper Conrad: 1:02:56

We don't do things, true, because we then can say, oh, I learned this and we do it because it's fun and we learn it, and then we can be proud of having learned new stuff. I've learned to whittle spoons. I'm very happy about that. I didn't sit down, take a course to learn to do it. I had a goal of wanting to try to make a wooden spoon. I figured it out and got some help, some good advice. Under the way, you can say it was education, but it was never a goal to now I will have a course in this kind of stuff?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:03:27

But you can say, on the other hand, what is world schooling? If we are to answer the question, when we started our fully nomadic lifestyle seven years ago, our children, we had an 18-year-old who had moved out from home at that point and then we had a I want to say 12-year-old, a six-year-old and a no.

Jesper Conrad: 1:03:54

No, they were. How was it?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:03:56

The youngest was six. Yeah, so they must have been six nine and 12.

Jamie Rumble: 1:04:01

Yeah, Six, nine and 12. Okay, so they youngest was six.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:04:02

Yeah, so they must have been six, nine and twelve. Yeah, six, nine and twelve. Okay, so they were what you would call school children. At that point in time they were already not in school and we were already not teaching them anything, especially nothing you could call a curriculum. We, of course, were still especially me, because me, because I was the one at home answering questions and facilitating things. So if they say, if a six-year-old says to you, I want to learn to draw a house, you facilitate that one way or the other. You take out pen and paper so drawing can be done, or whatever some drawing tools, and maybe you show an example, or you find a YouTube video or a book or a friend who's really good at drawing. And is that teaching? Yes, it's teaching, it's learning. But it's not me who sat down two years before and planned out that in the third week of February we would draw houses. I never did that.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:05:04

So this unschooling lifestyle where there was no curriculum, no agenda, no workbooks, we don't even know what grade our children are not in Really, I have to do math to figure it out that kind of life we already lived when we started traveling and, of course, we did put thoughts into. We put a lot of thoughts into why would we not send our children to school and why would we not teach them at home? Do homeschooling in a traditional curriculum based way? And how would that affect their life? What kind of education could you say they then would get? And how did that make sense? Of course we put a lot, hundreds of hours of thought and conversation into that, before we chose to become nomadic. And when we chose to become nomadic, of course, we put loads of hours into thinking and talking and and researching. What does this mean for children? And how, how, what, what is the? What is the effect of this, why, why does this make sense? And and so, of course, world schooling.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:06:16

There is a strategy. It's. It's very easy to say there's no strategy and we're just not doing it and we just live a passionate life, and learning is a byproduct of doing something you find interesting, which it is. But, on the other hand, we will circle back to the value thing and arrive at the point where, well, we know, jesper and I, what we think is really important, and we also know that we want to know what our children think is really important, and we have these conversations regularly and what we want them to learn before what you might say was a high school graduation, it's not so much the languages and the history and the grammar and the math and the science and the social science and whatever all these things. At the end of the day, these things are quite hard to not learn living a life.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:07:16

No, what we really want them to learn is the adaptability we talked about before. We want them to learn to evolve solid ethics, to know what they believe is true and right. It doesn't have to be what I believe is true and right, but I want them to think about it and act upon it and have experience making mistakes. Think about it and act upon it and have experience making mistakes and have experience with all kinds of cultures and settings and situations where things happen. And because we live the way we do, we have a lot of time to talk about what we experience with each other, but also with other people, that we're around getting their input, their value system, their way of thinking. That we're around getting their input, their value system, their way of thinking. So we want them to be really strong with that. We want them to be able to love.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:08:14

It's a vulnerable thing to do in friendships and romantic relationships and family relations to be in a loving position to give and receive love. We want them to be able to navigate the complexities of social life and the complexities of existence. Those things are so much more important If you want to learn the history of the American Revolution, whatever It'll take you like a month of focusing for a few hours a day. You can do that whenever in your life. But in the formative years of growing up, from you're a little toddler and until you're a young adult these things that I just mentioned they will have a hardcore impact on the quality of your life and also on the quality of your impact on this planet. So you talk about climate change and these things. Well, we don't worry too much about climate change because it's one of the things we can't do anything about anyways, but we do worry about I really need the word only in English.

Jesper Conrad: 1:09:23

Proper.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:09:24

How to be proper apparently is the word in English how to be in this life. In a way, that's okay, that makes sense, where you're doing the right thing, where your contribution is the contribution you want to make really, when you stop to think about it. That we do worry about and that's what we want to pass on to our children that they make good choices around human beings, about all beings around the planet. So that's what world schooling really is to us, and taking them out on this crazy journey of living in so many different places with so many different people in so many different ways for so many different reasons was a way to expose them to a lot of different things so that they could more likely have more different experiences to work with, to evolve these things I just mentioned. Of course, they're also learning math.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:10:27

I mean that's not hard and history and languages and those things, but that's just more like a ripple effect.

Jesper Conrad: 1:10:37

But again, it wasn't our curriculum. Sometimes if you go to Rome, you go to Rome because you want to go to Rome, you want to see some of the museums, you want to see the history there. If you go to New Mexico, it's because there's something drawing there. It's difficult not to learn something about that culture if you are an interested human being who knows the culture you come from and see the differences, and then we talk among each other about, hey, this is different, why is it different? And then the curiosity drive, for that we absorb knowledge in our dialogue around these things, things, because it is when something is different. My curiosity often wants to know why are we answering your questions? Good enough?

Jamie Rumble: 1:11:30

yeah, no, sometimes I'm like, oh, we are chatting away what I'm, what, what kind of is is gestating or going through my mind, is whether or not nomadism is a reaction or an instinct or a mix of and this is the other thing. I think in this modern day and age we've been kind of brought up to have this kind of black or white thinking where it's one or the other right. But I think, cecilia, you kind of touched on it's poly, it's, you know, multipolar, and I think that's part of the nomadic philosophy or thinking which I mentioned earlier. Yeah, lots of thoughts, so many thoughts. I also wanted to know a little bit more about Jesper, your background as a teacher and as an educator.

Jesper Conrad: 1:12:23

I have absolutely none.

Jamie Rumble: 1:12:25

Oh, okay, you mentioned.

Jesper Conrad: 1:12:28

Gaia, no, no, no, I started working with marketing part and then I worked, so I never did any of the curriculum work for it. But I know the organization inside out because it was part of my work to help them get out to the right people for it. But I know the organization inside out because it was part of my work to help them get out to the right people for them. Okay, so it was part of my digital nomad job.

Jamie Rumble: 1:12:49

I did it while I was traveling, okay, and so you mentioned about the values that you're trying to, I guess, develop in your children, that you see as being important. I guess I'm wondering do you feel or think that the world needs healing? Is that part of the process?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:13:13

I don't think I want to define what the world needs. That would put me in a position of you know, some sort of superior position. I think it needs awakening. If I am to, you know, I talked about oh sorry, inside the camera. I talked about consciousness before, and the only thing that really worries me is the lack of consciousness, the lack of focus, the distractions, the non-thinking Healing. Is it broken? I don't think I'm part of that discourse.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:13:52

Really, I think we're on some sort of path and it is what it is, and I'm not sure I am smart enough to know whether it's good or bad or right or wrong. There are disadvantages, but clearly there are also advantages. There are lots of good things about the modern life and where we are as humanity. Of course, I'm not a climate change denier or anything like that. I'm just saying we can talk about all the black spots on the world, but we could also talk about the whole house, you know, and and there's a lot of good things going on. So maybe, so my, my choices, our choices to, to work for and with the, the good vibes and and the things that we believe is making the world a better place, and if I think the world is such, or or humanity as such. Need anything?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:14:48

I think always consciousness, awareness and presence is a good thing, and I see a lot of not that I see that and it saddens me and it worries me, because I think people are quite smart and people are quite, you know, full of empathy and love and they do care.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:15:11

Can be hard to see the big picture, but at least you can see your own picture and care about that. But if you're not aware, if you're not present, if you're not aware, if you're not awake, then maybe it can just be the machine hammering on and suddenly you wake up because you get cancer or you get divorced, or get hit by a car or a health scare or something happens, and suddenly you wake up and realize, oh, maybe I should think about what I'm doing and I'm a little bit sad when I see that that's sometimes not the case. As you said, with the education system we spend Notes of cultures, countries have this agenda of educating their children and young people and they put a lot of effort, a lot of tax money, a lot of people's life hours into it and really this is what you call it banking.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:16:07

You know it's not educating young people to think and feel and be present and understand and ask critical questions and finding the answers. It's more like the foie gras. You know how they feed the ducks by shaking things down the coast.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:16:22

And you know, and then you get a gold star. If you can get a big fat liver, that's the gold star. If you can reproduce, vomit out all of that knowledge that was pushed into you rather than learning to actually engage with this life and, you know, have really deep dives into knowledge that makes sense to you to absorb. I find that quite sad.

Jesper Conrad: 1:16:51

About the healing of the world, then again, the world is made up of people. It is you are there, we're here. I think if we take and say, oh, society is sick, or the world is sick and it needs healing, then it again is an excuse for doing something, because if everybody did their best, the world would look way different.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:17:21

It wouldn't need healing it wouldn't need healing.

Jesper Conrad: 1:17:22

It wouldn't need healing. So I think that taking it up on these global kind of scales is a way to not take responsibility Again, to quote a wonderful song by Michael Jackson I'm starting with the man in the mirror If everybody did that. I've seen so many people talk about climate change and then they go down and buy a burger with meat that is shitty, produced from places that no animals should live and, of course, this is my bacon at the end of the talking. But at the same time, I think there's a lot of people who don't stand with their values, who talk, who say it's a societal problem or it's a world problem. I'm like no, no, no. If you're right there, you take responsibility for your own life, you do what you think is right and you do it good, then the world will come along. And that is my problem with what I would call eschewsism, this putting it over as a societal thing. It's the schools, it's the men, it's the oligarchies. It's like start cleaning up your own house, then the world is really good yeah.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:18:46

I think it's both. I mean, I'm not saying there isn't a point to be made, for you know, we I used to be a full-blown anarchist and I am not as full-blown any longer. I think states, laws and rules can have a really good impact for human beings and it can be really important. So I'm not against thinking bigger scale. I just think that you're right, the most part is the individuals, and humanity is made up of a lot of individuals in a lot of groups. So it's not just the individual individual in a lot of groups.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:19:25

So it's not just the individual individual, it's also what communities are you part of and how can you make those communities thrive so that people inside those communities feel good when they wake up in the morning, so that people in those communities have love and support and freedom and consciousness? Can you be part of making creating more of that and peace? Peace and clearness is what I pray for. If I ever pray, I pray that I can be clear in my mind and that I can have peace in my mind if, if we can be part of creating more of that in the communities we, we are in, and that can just be you and your or it can be you and the 50 people you live in in your local community, whatever. If you can create more of that, you're making the world a better place. So, and I think that's more important, and I think also that's also why we don't talk about climate change. It's not interesting because there's not much we can do about it. But we can do something about what we put in.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:20:27

We can do something about how we consume. We can do something about how we feel and how we act and react to what's happening around us, what we contribute with and what vibe, you might say, what state of mind we leave behind us when we leave a location or a situation or a group or a country or a space. So we think a lot about that and this is where we can act. And I think if everyone did that not exactly what I do, but if everyone did their best in the ways where they are good at doing their best, which is not the same for everyone, and I think we would see a huge effect, and maybe we already do.

Jamie Rumble: 1:21:16

maybe that's the awakening you talked about before yeah, and that's something that the educator frary talks about, is consciousness raising. He uses a specific word that I can't pronounce in Portuguese consciência-sazão, or something like that as part of the-pedagogy as well learning to think that we are not separate from nature, that you know the things around us the trees, the rivers also have their own consciousness, and to be connected more with the world. So that's, I guess, kind of wrapping up the world schooling piece as well.

Jesper Conrad: 1:22:02

The fun thing for me with our podcast is we really like diving into people, ideas, thoughts, and we have, at the same time, thought a lot about the subjects that are the life we live, why we live it, our values, et cetera. So it's quite interesting to be not challenged but asked into. Why do you do stuff like that? And your perspective is fun, because there is some areas where I'm like ooh, no, no, that's not what I think, and then I need to explain it and that makes a very interesting conversation. So I think we should continue the conversation and then round up like that.

Jesper Conrad: 1:22:45

Jamie, it has been a big pleasure and for the people listening out there, this is part of Jamie's project. At some point there will come a master's out. I don't know when, but we will link to it, go back in the old podcast notes and link to it when time is. So if you listen to this years from now, there will be a link to the masters. But for us now it's time to say goodbye, but also see you again pretty soon, because it could be really interesting to get to the rest of the list of the questions on your long list. That would be a big pleasure.

Jamie Rumble: 1:23:21

Yeah, thank you so much.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:23:22

Thank you for your time, it was fun.

Jamie Rumble: 1:23:24

Yeah, thank you.