130: Navigating Unschooling and Nomadic Life | The Conrads in dialogue with Heidi & Andrew Schrum

Autogenerated Transcript

Jesper Conrad: 0:10

So today we are together with Heidi and Andrew Schrum, and the reason we are here is because Cecilia and I had been doing some talks in Danish and I wrote about them and Heidi reached out to me and said oh, are you doing some in English? At some point it could be good to ask some questions, and then I thought why not invite them on a podcast episode? And then we just take all the questions you have right now. So first of all, a warm welcome. It is nice to see you both.

Heidi Schrum: 0:42

Nice to see you guys too. We are about to embark on our own traveling journey in about a month. We have two kids five and seven and we've been following you guys for about a month. We have two kids five and seven and we've been following you guys for about a year now and really enjoy all the podcasts that you guys put out, and so you're also unschoolers, but also just getting to the point where we're getting more questions asked to us about education with our kids, and it it's has become a little more of a challenge, and so we're just trying to like figure out our wording and how to explain our life and us embarking on this full-time travel. There's lots of questions coming from other people and, since following you guys, it's been like a huge inspiration for us, and our first question is what is some general information you guys could give us, like us?

Andrew Schrum: 1:43

just first starting out, something that maybe took you five years to figure out through your journey. Or, um, you know something you wish you would have thought about before you left. Or you learned along the way and you're like, oh, I wish I would have done this differently, anything like that.

Jesper Conrad: 2:01

Oh, I have a good one for that and it is tied a little into the whole all the questions. First I experienced the questions change a little. Or what changed a little when we started traveling. Was this move from oh so it's a little weird, you guys are unschooling what's going on and you're homeschooling to how fascinating that you're going on a journey with your kids. We always wanted that ourselves. That changed. First I was a little mesmerized by it. I was like, but hey, it's the same thing I'm doing. Why is it all of a sudden interesting now before you thought it was weird?

Jesper Conrad: 2:46

But I think it is because it is easier for people to say to themselves I cannot do this, whereas sometimes the lifestyle we have led have been a tone in people's eyes where they kind of can have felt that our life choices were somehow diminishing what they did with their life. And for us it hasn't been that goal at all. We are not living our life to say to other people you should live differently. We live our life because we like it. But one thing I wish I could have done differently is that I think I need to start used a lot of time explaining myself, a lot of time not talking down, kind of finding all that was bad with the culture we were in the society and saying to people praising the unschooling choice and the world schooling choice, by talking negatively about the schools and to school your kids, where I today actually try to find a difference between.

Jesper Conrad: 4:04

Is it just a polite question? You know, normally when people you say, hey, what are you doing? Oh, you're traveling, oh, that sounds exciting. It is sometimes just small talk and not an invitation to talk for three hours. Sometimes I have talked for three hours and be part of that was to strengthen my own arguments and thoughts. Where today I'm a little more chilled, I would rather hear about other people and talk with them about their thoughts. And then I had to claim unschooling is the best in the world and if you put your children to school, you shouldn't, et cetera, et cetera. Can I say?

Cecilie Conrad: 4:44

something. Yeah, please. It's clear that world schooling is less frowned upon than unschooling. People are very overwhelmed by oh, that's an adventure. I wish I could do that. So it changes. And also, if you don't mind that people make up their own ideas about what you're doing, I mean, they can project all sorts of things into the word world schooling and you don't have to you know, they don't have to all understand.

Cecilie Conrad: 5:12

For the first I don't, maybe three or four years even we were unschooling, based in Copenhagen, the same city as my in-laws, my mother-in-law. She thought I was sitting at the dining table with the kids three hours a day with a belt and some books, and I didn't correct her. She was happy, felt safe. I was happy, felt safe. No one got hurt. I was happy, felt safe, no one got hurt. I didn't laugh at her.

Cecilie Conrad: 5:39

She never asked, and when she figured out they had been home educated for so long, she realized that they were doing good. So it was just the form was different. So yeah, but I think I'm answering a different question than the one you asked. And the one you asked I understood as what, what would you wish you had known, or what, what have you figured out that could be explained now so we don't have to go make the same mistake. I think the main thing is that in preparing for the change from a home-based life to a nomadic life, there's a lot of thought process, and you know you think about it so much and you imagine what it could be like and all kinds of things from water bottles to higher education. You know it's all going on there and, in reality, life changes all the time. You know, you can't know and I can't know what you need two years from now and what will look like for you you would have to come up with what most sense.

Cecilie Conrad: 6:44

All the time. You're freeing yourself from a restriction of having to stay in one place or being dependent on a house and and you're you're going to have to grow some. You know you're going to have to grow some. You know you're going to have to be able to hold some insecurity and you're going to have to solve a lot of problems you didn't see coming. Not necessarily big and devastating problems, just situations, okay. Okay, that one I don't know. I mean, and can you prepare? No, you can't prepare for that. You can prepare for being flexible, know being okay. I'm going to have to solve some problems that I can't imagine right now. Not hard, I've never had like devastating anything I'm just saying when it unfolds, everything changes.

Cecilie Conrad: 7:31

So I think it's a waste of time to try to prepare so much for it, because your kids will grow and they have personalities. And you will grow and you have personalities and you will meet people and you will fall in love with places and you will hate other places and and you will sometimes book something for three months and hate staying there, maybe even leave. I mean, there's so many things that can happen and I needed to buy a bus to feel secure.

Cecilie Conrad: 8:00

You need to get out of there, you need to get started and, and we need very much needed to sell that bus again. The bus was a I mean, I don't know it. No, no, no it was a mistake, but it was a ticket out more than it was a traveling vehicle. Yeah, and, and it's very expensive to get out yeah, but I.

Jesper Conrad: 8:18

That's why I say that's what I needed for my, for my security in it. What I've learned during the last five years is that's basically what cecilia is saying oh yeah, but the first five, seven, oh yeah. We have traveled a long time now. No, what I've learned is that it is really good to have wi-fi. I have the wi-fi everywhere. The styling is good when it's aligned, but it's also when I look back at how we traveled then I think, yeah, do you remember your big first wi-fi solution the panic solution where I had five different cards with 20 devices.

Cecilie Conrad: 9:02

Yeah, I remember that okay oh, oh yeah I mean, that's actually a story in the wrong way. Yeah, I'm not knowing what you're venturing into, trying to prepare and just mega failing oh, oh, I mega failed, so I bought a satellite Doing it would have been better.

Jesper Conrad: 9:19

A big satellite that cost a lot of money. I never used it. It cost a lot of money and when I was ready to put it out, I was thinking about where are we actually as people? Oh, we are where other people are. One thing that is common for where people are is that there's mobile coverage, and if I'm in a place without mobile coverage it's because I do not want to work. Only place in all of Europe and Mexico and the States I've had shitty Wi-Fi on the mobile is in UK.

Cecilie Conrad: 9:59

It's over.

Jesper Conrad: 10:01

I bought last summer. I bought the styling in UK because I couldn't understand why they have so shitty mobile coverage.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:10

Actually.

Jesper Conrad: 10:10

Now we know.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:12

To be fair. Yeah, I mean England is growing on me. I actually love England. I think they To be fair. Yeah, I mean England is growing on me. I actually love England. I think they're great over here. Maybe they can even have their great in their name.

Jesper Conrad: 10:20

Oh yeah.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:23

Covering was really bad. It is really bad over here, it just is. The mobile covering is really bad In a lot of cases, even in the big cities. It shocks us every time we go here. But the real reason was I was going on, and on and on and on and on and on about I wanted to go to Scotland and because the covering is so bad even down here, even inside London, Jesper was like panicking we cannot go up to Scotland. That's too risky. There will be no Wi-Fi.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:52

We have to take our money. It's fair enough, so it's not for.

Andrew Schrum: 10:55

Netflix, you know it's too risky.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:56

There will be no Wi-Fi. We have to take our money.

Andrew Schrum: 10:57

It's fair enough. So it's not for Netflix, you know, it's for work.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:59

So yeah, so we bought the Starlink After a day. Oh man, we can drizzle little stories here. So one day we wake up in a forest and it's really epically beautiful because England actually really is it's lush and there's the sea stream and the soil is nice to walk on with our bare feet and we've just been on an amazing festival. We're really tired, overwhelmed, happy, grateful, and we're just going to spend the day in this forest, you know, coming down after a big, big, huge festival.

Jesper Conrad: 11:29

But I have a meeting.

Cecilie Conrad: 11:30

And yes, but just have a simple call. It's not a big deal. You know he can work. We can walk a little bit with the dogs. It's nice, except, yeah, there's just shite covering. He cannot work so we have to leave. He's panicking. We're packing up really quickly. Everything is chaos. When we don't do it nicely in the van, it becomes very, very chaotic. It's not like there's no grad. Either it's good or it's horrible. So it became horrible and we had to drive real fast because he had this meeting. It was a quite. All meetings are important. You're having a meeting with another person and you're you know you should show up. So yeah, anyway, we drive to the nearest city happens to be what's the name of it.

Cecilie Conrad: 12:11

It's even a joke in a show stoke and we part at needles parking and it's just, I mean the vibe there, it's just it was terrible it can be worse, but it was really bad and I was like fuck it. And we bought the stanley the same day yeah and then oh.

Jesper Conrad: 12:31

But then we drove to scotland where it was mountains, mountains and waterfalls and I had top Wi-Fi and I was just so happy.

Cecilie Conrad: 12:40

You were the happiest? No, but really it was that having to leave that forest that day was just no.

Jesper Conrad: 12:47

But to sum it up, because we talk a lot even on just one question sorry, but it is that you can think so much before you can be so afraid, you can have so many insecurities about what will happen. It's just life. It will be okay. If you have a credit card, you will be fine. Mobile phone and a credit card, no.

Cecilie Conrad: 13:12

But really, I mean solve the problems when they are actually there. I think that's one, one takeaway. We prepared a lot for a lot of things. We had never been thinking a lot, and it's not like we were prepped at all, but it's. It's actually been a lot of the preparation.

Cecilie Conrad: 13:29

This has just been in vain yeah it was just that was just not the way to do it and we couldn't have known, because it's quite different to live nomadically. It's quite different from living a stable life in a one location and it's different from being on vacation, even a longer one, like a gap year, backpack, whatever, something. It's different when it becomes just your reality and that different reality has all sorts of different settings and and we change, our needs change, our dreams change, our kids change, and so I feel it's more like the preparation might be more in the down, the lines of how much insecurity can we hold? How do we make sure we talk about things before we panic? How do we make sure we get some? You're going to hate me for saying this.

Cecilie Conrad: 14:21

This is one we haven't solved.

Andrew Schrum: 14:23

It's a good way.

Cecilie Conrad: 14:24

How do we get pauses?

Jesper Conrad: 14:26

Oh yeah, I would love that.

Cecilie Conrad: 14:28

And we get what?

Jesper Conrad: 14:29

Some pauses.

Heidi Schrum: 14:30

Time to work. How do you stop and think?

Cecilie Conrad: 14:32

and feel Am I panifying this styling thing because I'm having one bad day in Stoke or actually needing it? So with this, we knew it because we had been talking about it for a long time.

Andrew Schrum: 14:44

I think, the next question. It kind of continues on, but one of our older son, who's seven, is not interested in this journey. Our younger son, who's five, he's a, you know, he's a big extrovert, happy to do whatever, make friends in a heartbeat, and and we're kind of, you know we're, we're both in that, that mindset as well.

Heidi Schrum: 15:06

Heidi and I was ready to experience anything and everything everything, but our seven-year-old is basically refusing to go, and so we are just kind of ignoring it and just kind of proceeding as we go and he's he's one to be set in his ways anyway. So we're looking at this opportunity as like a really good thing for him and to like really grow on this, being more flexible and but also being mindful of his personality. But that's been like one big question mark for us is like just the resistance, and we're not really sure how to navigate it and just go forward with it.

Andrew Schrum: 15:59

And we've done a couple of trips. You know we did a three, four week trip to Guatemala and we did a five week trip to Mexico to kind of test the waters and they did great right Like they adapted and they got along. So we know that that is likely going to happen and it's all going to be fine.

Jesper Conrad: 16:20

But the lead up to it is still challenging to know every time we mention it. I'm not going you know, of course, but there is, yeah. So it can be difficult how we as adults talk about these things with our kids, because if we are saying we will travel for a long time or we will sell our house or whatever, it's their world, they have a shorter perspective than us. So I would always see, if I can not downplay it, not to cheat them in any way, but also to not scare them. I also believe there's no big reason to talk a lot about death with kids. It's the same. Let them be in their moment and in the focus. And if it's really, really terrible for him, then it's also not a good life for you. And then you will figure out to change your circumstances to make it a good life for you, and then you will think how to change your circumstances to make it a good life for everyone.

Jesper Conrad: 17:18

The good recommendations is more ice cream, more cake, more fun, but also to focus on what he will get more of and not what he will get less of. Sometimes, when we talk with our kids about these changes, we use an adult perspective. That is just like, oh, please understand, it will be so cool for you and it's like, no, not in my mind. I will know from my friends, from my house, from my things. Then just take it step by step. We had a little restriction from one of our kids in the start and he was also young. I mean, sometimes we need to take care how we talk.

Cecilie Conrad: 18:03

I think, at least for us. It was also a big matrix of values and ideas leading up to choosing to travel full time and we knew that there would be benefits and there would be pain.

Cecilie Conrad: 18:27

You know there would be, for all of us and at the end we decided it's going to be worth it. We've been doing our best to make them feel safe and feel seen and feel happy and and we've done good and we've failed, you know, in both. And I think it would have been the same had we lived in one place. There would have been great elements of that and there would have been downsides. And that would have been the same had we lived in one place. There would have been great elements of that and there would have been downsides, and that would have been a different way of failing.

Cecilie Conrad: 19:04

So, it was this one and we told we had one who really protested as well and we had to tell him I'm sorry, I know it's not right for you, but as a collective there is more right than wrong in this and we're going. You have to come.

Cecilie Conrad: 19:23

Yeah, and there was protest, but at the end of the day we were the adults. We made the decision and we did promise we'll do our very best to make sure that you get what you need in your life, and we'll see how it goes. And it's different now. To make sure that you get what you need in your life and we'll see how it goes. And it's different now.

Cecilie Conrad: 19:39

It's been more than half of his life, so it's yeah, but but at the time it wasn't an easy choice to make. Yeah, it was not. But once it was made, it was you know. Then you just move forward. You're like, yeah, I hear you, I hear approach, I know it's not right for you. As unschoolers it's hard to make a choice against what your child wants, because that's not the modus, that's not what you usually do, but sometimes you do, sometimes you have to for some reason.

Heidi Schrum: 20:15

Relagging again.

Andrew Schrum: 20:16

Shoot, you lost your.

Cecilie Conrad: 20:19

Maybe we go into some of that, oh there you are hi, I mean, we should just go on a little yeah, yeah, we will go on.

Heidi Schrum: 20:32

I think that how did your, how did your child change over time? How long did the protests last? Or what changes did you see? How did that go?

Cecilie Conrad: 21:27

We're talking about more than half of the life of someone who's now 13. How did that change? A lot of things change from your 6 to your 13. Yeah and how much has to do with where we live or where we don't live and how much has to do with, you know, growing up. It's a lot of things we talk a lot about it we've talked.

Cecilie Conrad: 21:51

We talked about it today again. We've done a lot of different things and sometimes there can still be some frustration, and sometimes it's been. I remember a lot of conversations on beaches. Like you know, had we stayed, you wouldn't have been at the beach today.

Andrew Schrum: 22:12

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad: 22:13

We live in a country where there are like nine beach days a year and where we used to live in a country that's very cold. So and and all the things, all the things added up that we have experienced together that we wouldn't have had we not traveled. Child is growing and realizes that it's not been like me, with my index finger at the beach saying, hey, I told you so uh that it's just been more like an all-around.

Cecilie Conrad: 22:42

You know, we've been on the beach every day for the past month and this is november. You know, people are wearing woolen socks and and they they're all down with the flu and here you are swimming with your siblings. This is great.

Cecilie Conrad: 22:59

And then there could be a conversation yeah, but still you know. And then there can be another from our side yeah, but this is, you know. This is the math. It adds up. It's better we're paying something for this, but at the end of the day, this is the life we do want on an everyday basis that's a big choice well, but it doesn't look like no, no, it looks like you know.

Jesper Conrad: 23:24

You just press, repeat every morning.

Cecilie Conrad: 23:26

So, but it's, that's a choice too, and when you're full-time traveling. You're making choices all the time. I don't even know where I'm sleeping tonight.

Cecilie Conrad: 23:34

I mean it is yeah yeah, I'm just saying I have to make choices all the time, I have to make plans, that I have to come up with a new plan and people who live more in a mainstream way I'm trying to say this with all the respect, but they don't have to make these choices. They don't realize they're making a choice, but they are making a choice the sacrificing a lot of things to have that comfort and safety and routine kind of life and and I hope that that's what they want I mean the amount of sunsets.

Jesper Conrad: 24:09

I've seen, together with my family, the amounts of waterfalls, the hikes, the days on beaches, the beauty and the people, and the people I have lived. I'm 50 now and I'm like, in the last seven years I have lived so much more intensely. Sorry, I was right over.

Cecilie Conrad: 24:34

No, no, no, everybody understood it yeah. Like when you take the letters of a word and you scramble them and you can still read them.

Andrew Schrum: 24:42

It's the same.

Jesper Conrad: 24:44

No, but it I mean the amount of hours and time I've gotten together with my children in this different way of living. I don't know, andrew, if you already work from home or you have changed it, but imagine being at the beach. I mean, I've had days where I had.

Cecilie Conrad: 25:05

I'm actually really tired of the beach.

Jesper Conrad: 25:06

Yeah, you can get really tired of sand everywhere, but having a meeting and then after the meeting being like, oh, I think I will run down and jump in the water together with my kids, oh my God, the experiences, the joys we have had Sometimes. What I long for now is the peace and quiet because my everyday life is it will not happen. It's okay, yeah, and one thing.

Cecilie Conrad: 25:42

You just have peace and quiet. While I did that long walk with everyone yeah, like three or four hours I did a really good project.

Jesper Conrad: 25:49

I really wanted it and I'm not finished with it. I will do more yeah so, no, sorry, yeah. So that's it. But hit, I will do more yeah, so, no, sorry, yeah. So so that's it, but hit us with more questions.

Andrew Schrum: 25:59

Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll just probe you a little bit on on your work and and how much? How much do you work? And I guess the question kind of stems around. I've been working my whole adult life and I just put in my notice and I'm going to free the mind for a little bit, and but I've been in busy mind mode for, you know, a decade or more and I work in marketing as well. So I've been getting constantly pinged all day for 40, 50, 60 hours a week and and I'm about to be free of that, which is very exciting. But but also, you know, I'm a little worried about, like, where's my mind going to go. But I know that I'm going to find this great thing. I'm going to find whatever I want to do. Next, I'm going to spend more time with my kids.

Jesper Conrad: 26:44

Don't do that. Find a project.

Cecilie Conrad: 26:48

It would drive Jesper insane. That doesn't mean it would drive you insane.

Jesper Conrad: 26:53

Yeah, actually, jesper, watch it there. Yeah, I will watch it. No, no, so there's this fun, it's like I can't stand still. Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad: 27:01

Like you, literally have to tie me to a sofa. Yes, sir, cannot not have projects. No, you just can't do it my mind and he comes up with another, one and another and they're like these monstrous huge things. I'm like what, what? Yeah, yeah, what are that?

Jesper Conrad: 27:18

yeah, you know, it's fine, that's how you function yes but everyone are not like you no, but I will say about going out of that. The mindset, the busy, busy mindset, oh my god, it's difficult. I'm not, I'm not sure I plan to not sure you've ever done it, have you?

Jesper Conrad: 27:36

I've tried for a year at some point where I've worked a little, oh, back then. So my experience is I actually got depressed. Yeah, literally my personality, my every day for 30 years or something, had been both my identity someone who works and do work thing and get money and identify the money thing with a pat on the shoulder. That is like hey, yes, but you're really good. And the great thing about a project is you can finish a part of a task and then you can give yourself two thumbs up, and if you get money on top it's even better. But playing a game with your children, nobody gives you money or something. So there's something in my mindset that has really difficulties, where I'm way better at just ticking boxes and saying, oh, yes, but you're doing great, than relaxing in the presence. So what I've done is that one of the best thing I've done is something my wonderful wife has been doing for years and I've met more women than men doing it. It's knitting.

Jesper Conrad: 28:54

I tried, I was really shit at it, but I've started half spoons and I really love it, and I started also taking in a music instrument. So if you plan to tone down your amount of work, I'm like get a hobby because you yeah, you have been in a mode of learning and being in this project phase where you tick stuff off and, if you it, so detox for that or like a cold turkey on. That is unhealthy I cannot recommend. I would rather change it out with something that you can do together play music, have fun, and actually one of the best thing I've done is the the wood carving. I make spoons and people ask me if I should do other than spoons and I'm like you're crazy. I like spoons and they're good.

Cecilie Conrad: 29:44

It's a good thing to yeah and they don't presence because we don't need more than the 50 spoons we already have yeah right that great.

Jesper Conrad: 29:56

No, so be afraid and accept that it is a big change.

Cecilie Conrad: 30:00

Yeah, notice who you are. You're not necessarily like Jesper.

Andrew Schrum: 30:06

You might enjoy it. Yeah, true Cool.

Cecilie Conrad: 30:12

If you feel like you need something to feel important, you can have my 565 emails.

Andrew Schrum: 30:18

Yeah yeah, I.

Heidi Schrum: 30:22

I hope that I'm sincerely not going to miss the emails, but yeah, I'm sure that who knows, this is a different question off that topic, but how, how do you guys go about with screens and how have you approached gaming and just the whole screen thing in general?

Jesper Conrad: 30:41

We have tried all the different ways. We have changed our mind on it multiple, multiple times, some of our earlier podcasts. Then one of the things a quote is a woman called Darcia Naves who talked about you know, more nature tribes where people have seen them letting the kids play with the weapons, with the bow and arrow and everything. And then they were asked so why are you letting them play with the weapons? And they said, oh, of course they need to know because this will be their future work. So of course they need to be able to handle it, but we do not let them play with the poisoned arrows Comes for later. So what I took out of that is asking myself so what is the poisoned arrows of the screens that is a question about? Am I in dialogue with my children? Do I interest myself what they're doing? Am I sharing the experience with them? Do I actually give them a screen? Sometimes to pacify them?

Jesper Conrad: 31:48

I have done that. I've been like, oh, dad want to make food without being interrupted, and I don't have the presence of mind to be there when they and and I mean the mess a five-year-old can make and all these things sometimes I've just been like, oh, here's the ipad. Am I proud of that? No, is it normal? Yes, do I recommend it, depending on where you are in your life? Back Back then, for me at that point it was the right thing. No it was not.

Jesper Conrad: 32:17

It was what I had the mind and presence of doing. I would wish I had had more presence of mind, but I didn't.

Cecilie Conrad: 32:28

We have done all the different things. We've had rules. We've had no rules. We've had conversations. I'm actually currently I don't know. You said you heard the podcast. Are you reading the blog as well?

Cecilie Conrad: 32:41

I think the last yeah things I read wrote yeah screens and that whole conversation, because I think everybody talk about it all the time and there's a lot of worry around the parents and there's a lot of blame and shame going on in the relation with the kids and I don't know. I mean, I think what I mostly see is that it's been great what the screens are contributing with. Contributing with it's a very narrow-minded thing to like, not narrow-minded, but very putting a lot of things in the same bucket when you say the screen and yeah and that's yes we have to deconstruct that, we have to talk about it in a more nuanced way, but in

Cecilie Conrad: 33:30

general, what I see is we've had so much conflict around this and it's not been worth it, and we've had so much worry and there was actually nothing to worry about. We've had so many unnecessary problems and then we've had a few things that we actually had to change and, I think, stopping to think about that a little bit first and to have some level, actual conversations with the children. Also, if you're worried, that's fair you know, you have a nightmare, You're afraid.

Cecilie Conrad: 34:11

You wake up in the night, You're afraid. It's an emotion. It's all right If you're worried. It's okay to be worried actually, and there's a lot of the whole mainstream conversation about it. There's a lot of oh, they become addicted and all these things.

Andrew Schrum: 34:26

It goes on, and on, and on and actually what they're doing.

Cecilie Conrad: 34:30

It's quite entertaining, it's quite fun, it's quite exploring. No-transcript, it's quite intelligent. Actually, when I hear their conversations about their games, I can hardly understand it, but I can hear that there's a lot of brainpower going on behind the scenes here, a lot of strategy, a lot of I mean I can come up with some sort of words that could legitimize it and sound like education or sound like, I don't know, know, like it's speaking. Education is around it, and that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm just saying to be bored, no one, no, no one. And it's children and adults like we don't like to be bored, so we do something. It's not boring, otherwise we do something else. And and this means these games and movies and shows and youtube channels and all the things, all the chatting with friends what else do they do? I don't know all the things. There must be something in it, because why would they do it?

Cecilie Conrad: 35:46

I have a child who when she was I want to say two years, but maybe she was three actually she would watch the same movie how to train your dragon every day, every day, every day, for four months. I mean, I would have to leave the room sometimes because I was like she would watch that movie and jump in the sofa and I don't know why that movie had to be played more than a hundred times before she had absorbed everything she needed from it. I could come up with, but it's not relevant right now. I'm just saying there must have been something in it Also when she first played time number 112. Otherwise she would have done something else. She's smart. She had a lot of options and yet there was just I need my daily how to train my dragon, yeah, and one thing in the sofa, yeah. So she did that and and I think, yes.

Cecilie Conrad: 36:57

So that's one side. We're basically chill. The other side is it's more like, on a more abstract and deconstructed way, we can think about. So are there any poisonous arrows here? Is there anything that's actually unhealthy, anything that's actually too overwhelming or intruding? There's no doubt that the algorithms and all the extensive psychological research that is behind some of the ways things are presented to us, it's impossible to not succumb to it, to the fascination, and maybe that's not how we want to spend our time, or maybe that's not how we want to spend our time right now, but it can be very hard to stop to spend our time right now, but it can be very hard to stop um, so that would be the poisonous arrow kind of thing have any interactions with things that are a little, can spiral out of control, and how do we navigate it?

Cecilie Conrad: 38:03

that's one thing I think is important. And then the. The other element is some sort of life design kind of thought process. So how do I want my life to look? What circles, what elements do I get a lot of stories from the screen and do I like getting stories, but do I also get the exercise? Do I also get the conversations? Do I also get the music? Do I also get the shared meals? So all the elements that I want, are they all actually present? And if they are not, if something's out of balance?

Cecilie Conrad: 38:43

If you're having a big, elaborate, seven course shared meal three times a day, maybe you're slightly overdoing it. That would take you nine hours of cooking and three hours of cleaning, and you know you're never doing anything. But that so even sounds amazing. Actually it isn't, and in a way, this the screen again it's. I'm putting too many things in the same bucket, but yeah, that's the only way to talk about it in a short way, but that, of course, the life balance, life design conversation can be held. Are we gaming at three in the morning and we still think we're getting up at that seven o'clock sunrise hike. Does that make sense? And we're maybe nine? Do we need more than five hours of sleep? I mean, there are things like that, that and that's.

Jesper Conrad: 39:33

That's leveled, respectful conversations, not strict rules and judgment I have one point also, which is one of the biggest problems I see with screens, is the judgment that we parents put on it and what I often see. We do never question the screens when we are using time together with our children. On the screens it's most often a and let me be a little provocative here it's most often a I do not want to be together with my kids right now. I would prefer they did something. I would vote as intellectual If they were sitting and playing chess. I would be a proud unschooling dad. But if they're sitting with a screen, why do I do not want to be together with them?

Cecilie Conrad: 40:22

Maybe even playing chess.

Jesper Conrad: 40:23

Maybe even playing chess with them, then I can judge the value of what they're doing. I can look down at it. Where my question is? Just so, if you think your child is using too much time on the screen, maybe you should spend more time together with your child. Yeah, that's of course it's a little rough, I know it, but I do not see people judge what their children are doing on the screen when they are doing it together with them, maybe just being more together. And and if you do not want to be together with them, maybe they should be free under the what you can live with in your life, of the what they are doing and seeing on the screens no, but also, as I said in the beginning, if you're actually worried, just speak that worry instead of speaking a judgment or rule.

Cecilie Conrad: 41:16

To say this worries me. I've been at. I mean, I'm really trying to be really unschooling and really free and open around these things because we've I've made so many mistakes. I'm sorry, I can say it again.

Cecilie Conrad: 41:26

I'm sorry but sometimes I even say to not that they're quite old, our kids now, so not so much any longer. But I have said I know that this is wrong, that this is not my philosophy, that it's not your freedom and it's not, it's not objectively right, but right now it makes me feel so uncomfortable I I need us to unplug things now for a few hours and do something else, the point just being you, you're actually the parent, you are the adult we're allowed to say stop, it's just your reasoning around it.

Cecilie Conrad: 42:48

Sometimes. If it's actually just worry and there's no good reason other than that, maybe that could be the sole argument. I'm sorry, but I'm from a different generation. I don't understand these things and it makes me uncomfortable, and today I can't handle it. Can we please unplug for a while?

Cecilie Conrad: 43:07

I need us to do something else. It's about me. There's nothing wrong with your games. There's nothing wrong with your games. There's nothing wrong with you. Please, can we go on a hike? And actually, you know kids can cooperate and will want to cooperate If you don't use it nine times a day. That would be unfair.

Heidi Schrum: 43:28

Kind of more on the unschooling bit is when we're thinking about, like, what we want to do with our days, just like right now, like regular to do that. So we're we're kind of like, okay, should we just like go and like see this play, and just be like, okay, we're going to go see this play and let's see if they like it or not. Because a lot, a lot of times when we do things they're like like, oh, this is so fun. But I think I guess more of my question around is like, um, exposing kids versus following their interests and I guess, doing both um, but like, how do you guys, how have you navigated that throughout the years?

Jesper Conrad: 44:28

I think there's a danger in unfolding where people forget themselves and let children be in the lead. The parents are the parents, the parents are the caretakers. The parents are moving in a direction and, of course, you are respecting your children and what they want and like, but a child shouldn't be in charge of a family. They're too young. Yeah, so I think that sometimes unschooling can be in a way where people, instead of seeing it as self-motivated that there is a venture forward, energy in the child and you follow along with that, that they sometimes let the child be in the lead and be like oh so what do you want to do today? And the question is is it the child who should figure out these things? Isn't it maybe a quite big load of responsibility to put on a child that is five years old or seven? I mean, that's not fair either.

Cecilie Conrad: 45:38

Right, I think the whole exposure idea and it might not be what you mean, but when in the unschooling community we talk about exposing our children to things, yeah, I think it's a reminiscence from the idea of schooling and now that we're not schooling them, we need to expose them to things. That's like, then that becomes our responsibility. And when I, when I think about how life unfolds, I'm pretty sure most people be attracted to the things they need in their life. So I'm sure my daughter was watching that movie all the time because she's actually really, really passionate about dogs and and her whole thing is that she's very special around that. And that movie is about connecting with beings of another gene pool and and I think that was the reason, so she's attracted to that and that will become her career and that's the whole thing.

Cecilie Conrad: 46:38

And I think everyone actually will figure out what they are attracted, what makes sense for them in life, what's important. And we're all different, we all have different interests and different passions and you can't know and you don't need to take your kids and put them in 2 000 different contexts during their childhood, because then, only and only then, will they find the one of them. That's right, they will find it. They will find it. Sure, you can keep them at home, you can just do whatever, just dinner, you know it's not important, they will figure it out. They're very's not important, they will figure it out. They're very, very young right now. They will figure it out. So that's one thing.

Cecilie Conrad: 47:15

This whole exposure idea becomes a little bit like setting the scene, like you should go, do things you think are fun to do, do things you like doing, and if you don't feel like doing them, don't do them, except if you feel like you have to for some reason. Like the good old doing the dishes argument, you know you feel like eating from a clean plate next time, so you do the dishes now. So of course there are things like that, but really I mean exposure. I think it's bullshit, and especially these years, we all have the internet in our back pocket, so if you ask a question about snails you can answer it right away. You don't need to do a lot of exposure, you just need to be together and follow your interests and feel your heartbeat and feel all this. I'd really like to know more about that, and usually it's not. It doesn't feel like education. It doesn't feel like education. It doesn't feel like, um, I want to learn. It's more like, oh, I'm there, you know, I wonder, tell me more. And and it it becomes this conversation.

Jesper Conrad: 48:22

Unschooling is a conversation style that takes 18, 20, 25 years, yeah, so yeah that's the one thing.

Cecilie Conrad: 48:30

And then the other part of the answer, I think, is we've always been looking for common ground, like for shared interests. For what? What do we really like to do together? We're very good at going for long hikes. We really like becoming really, really tired and thirsty together. It unwinds everything. Everybody gets to talk with everyone and oh, it's so nice to do so that and not everyone loves that.

Cecilie Conrad: 48:59

I know someone who lives in norway and they just don't like skiing and it's just too bad, you know, because it's actually a really good option if you live there, but none of them like it, so they don't do it, which is fair. You think everyone in norway goes skiing all the time. Actually they don't. So, find whatever works and and we do it like we have a few things we like to do all of us, and then we have with all of our kids. We have like so there's this thing I like to do with this daughter and then there's that thing I like to do with that son, and we find these things and I like doing it. I'm not doing it for exposure or education or any other strategic. I do it because I like doing it. It makes me happy. But that is exposure. I mean, if you want to have that mindset, that is the reason we're pilgriming Shakespeare today. I mean it's because there's something we like doing together.

Jesper Conrad: 49:53

Yeah, yeah, we are trying to round this episode up and we would really like to take another chat with you Before we say a proper goodbye. I want to say what one of our good friends said to us before we started traveling. She said beware of the six, seven month crisis, because six months, yeah many people you go in.

Jesper Conrad: 50:22

It's always adventure, it's all new and you have so much wow, stuff is happening. But after stuff has happened for some time, you get down to the oath. There's also the everyday life and it's not fun all the time you actually have to cut fingernails, but then you forget that life in in one place where you have one circle where you live your everyday life.

Jesper Conrad: 50:46

that's not always fun either, so don't think that life will be all glamorous for the rest of the time you're traveling. There's good days and there's bad days, and many have a crisis around half a year because then it becomes everyday life and it's not so fantastic anymore.

Cecilie Conrad: 51:05

Maybe you're tired at that point you run pretty fast and that's when I said we've had some pauses. We've had pauses At least in the afternoon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, where we didn't do a lot, yeah, yeah.

Jesper Conrad: 51:16

Yeah, so remember the pauses, remember to have fun, and the world is really, really a wonderful place to hang out. Andrew and Heidi, thank you for taking the time to ask us these questions, and sorry we talk so much. Yeah, I look forward to hearing more questions, so let's find a new time and date. We'll just do it on email, and have you already created an Instagram for your friends to follow you, and if then share it with us, then we can put it in the show notes so people can follow along? Yeah, if then share it with us, then we can put it in the show notes so people can follow along.

Andrew Schrum: 51:54

Yeah, that sounds great. We're kind of waiting till out of work to think through all of that and get the right thing going, whether it's a blog or just social or whatever. But this has been awesome. Thank you so much for taking time and it really has. We'll continue to follow you. Yes, thank you so much. Let's talk again and we will talk again it was fun.

Cecilie Conrad: 52:13

It was great Bye-bye.

Jesper Conrad: 52:15

Thank you All right Thanks.