#59 - Four Arrows | Embracing Indigenous Wisdom, Sustainable Living, and the Journey to 'Enoughness'

four arrows - cover

🗓️ Recorded January 26th, 2024. 📍Playa Dorada, Lengüeta Arenosa, Baja California, Mexico

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About this Episode 

Join us for a riveting episode that journeys into the heart of Indigenous wisdom with Don Trent Jacobs, known affectionately as Four Arrows, a beacon of Lakota teachings and a profound advocate for American Indian rights. Four Arrows invites us into his world, sharing the story behind his evocative Lakota name, Wahinkpe Topa, and how it has guided his journey through life, education, and activism. His tales are a testament to the deep connection with Earth's rhythms and the transformative insights from Indigenous worldviews.

Delve into a conversation that spans the vast landscapes of personal autonomy, counter-hegemonic education, and the pivotal moments that have defined Four Arrows' path, including a life-altering near-death experience. Explore the critical contrasts between Western and Indigenous perspectives on our relationship with the natural world, education, and societal structures, revealing how these views shape our learning paths and personal freedom.

We discuss the integration of eco-conscious living in both rural and urban settings, igniting curiosity for a life in harmony with nature.

The conversation takes a deeper dive into the untold stories of historical figures like Helen Keller, challenging us to rethink our education system and the importance of recognizing natural entities as legal persons. Four Arrows shares his courageous battle with Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, highlighting nature's healing powers and the significance of spiritual existence. 

This episode, wrapped in the resilience and spiritual beauty of the human spirit, invites you to discover the principle of "enoughness" and the enduring beauty found amidst life's trials. Tune in for an enlightening exploration that promises to shift your perspective and stir your soul.

Related episodes

Four Arrows have written the book 'Restoring the Kinship Worldview' together with Darcia Narvaez - Listen to our episode with Darcia here

Four Arrows' daughter is Jessica Jacobs, who has created 'Ditchschool' - Listen to our episode with Jessica here.

Episode links

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With love


Jesper Conrad 


00:00 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Welcome to Self-Directed. We are your hosts, cecilia and Jesper Conrad, and now it's time to welcome this week's guest. So today we are together with four arrows and, first of all, it's super nice that you wanted to take your time to talk with us. Welcome to our little time together.

00:23 - Four Arrows (Guest)
Well, I'm honored to be on your show and looking forward to our conversation.

00:27 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, the first natural step for me, and also probably our listeners, to start is Did he say four arrows? What do he mean? How come a man is called four arrows? So, if we can start there, just a short explanation of why you are named four arrows.

00:47 - Four Arrows (Guest)
Well, if I was going to introduce you in the Lakota language I would say I would say my name is Four Arrows, I offer you a warm handshake and I speak from my heart. It's kind of a long story but I'm going to try to make it as short as I can. I was a maid relative of the Ogla Lakota when I was Dean of Education at Ogla Lakota College and that was after I fulfilled my four Sundance Falsions. A maid relative for the Lakota is making a relative is one of the seven sacred ceremonies the Sundance, the Avisian Quest, the Aenepe, etc. And so I have been following that path as a maid relative. They say that my spirit will not go to the Ireland where I'm mostly Irish, or north, to my Shilagi or my Cherokee. It will go to where the Lakota go, so most of my.

Since I left Pine Ridge I've continued to work on Indigenous worldview issues and place-based knowledge of Indigenous people. So I did not go by the name. I kept it as a spiritual name for many years. But I had a vision on the day that George Bush announced a war against 60 different countries during the Iraq thing, and on an omblatchae, going up on the mountain and having a vision. People said you're right about what you believe, about how we all used to believe and live, and honor that by starting the conversations by going by your spiritual name. So I've been doing that now in my books for about 20 years. So that's what I can say about that.

02:43 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Perfect. As I said before we started the recording, our podcast is called Self-Directed and it is because we ourselves explore what it means to live a self-directed life, where you take responsibility for the life created and how you are in life. For us, the whole unschooling and world-schooling journey has been a big part of that. But after I read the Darcy and Navess book, the Evolved Nest, and she introduced me to your work together with her I was thinking this guy must also have lived a very self-directed life where he had taken the steps he felt was right. You used the world worldview. I have earlier worked for an NGO called Gaia Education that also have a worldview section and part of their education. But for many people it might be not a new word, but it's a word where they're like what are they talking about when they use the worldview?

03:52 - Four Arrows (Guest)
Well, that's a good question, because worldview is a controversial. The scholarship on it now has been emerged Robert Redfield out of the University of Chicago, really back into the academy in the 1930s and 40s and his opinion was that the worldview as originally intended in a German dialogue was really to stop dialogue. It was science against science, it was science against religion, religion against religion. But he says that if we really get to the essence of what was originally intended, it's about what is our relationship with ourselves, with fellow humans, with the rest of nature and with whatever happens to us when we leave this plane. And he says in essence that when you hear conversations about this, they're either about anthropocentrism or not anthropocentrism. They are about high respect for women or low. They're about materialism or spirituality, they're about self-directed autonomy or they're about hierarchy and authoritarianism. And he says, therefore, there's essentially only two worldviews there's the dominant Western, post-colonial and colonial worldview and there's the pre-colonial, nature-based, kinship worldview that we live for 99% of human history, all of us. And so I look at worldview as a dialogue opener, because for the last 9,000 years most of us have been embracing even if we don't like it, economics, education, entertainment, you name it a dominant, colonial worldview that is very hierarchical and not self-directed so much. But it's about we're in this continuum.

The indigenous worldview is a non-binary worldview. It's about the connection of opposites, so it's not a rigid dichotomy. So the worldview chart that Darsha and I have put together is based on a lot of scholarship and it's really not about this is good and this is bad, but it's more left and right brain hemisphere kind of work right. So that's what the worldview is and I make a clear distinction between indigenous worldview and indigenous place-based knowledge. Place-based knowledge very few people have. I don't have it. It requires fluency in the language and the ceremonies, living in one place for many generations to really know how that works right. But all the place-based knowledge tribes that I've visited and that's been hundreds of them have in common what all creatures who are indigenous to planet Earth that can understand is how things work right. So it's. I think our separation from nature and the hypnosis of authoritarianism are really what has driven a non-self-directed world. And I know my daughter really was raised with a lot of self-direction and of course she has the Ditzch school that has.

Oh, my grandson, Sage, graduated from UC Berkeley at age 16. He's not a genius or anything, but it was all from the self-directedness and her Ditzch school has many, many students that are, you know, ditching school, so to speak, and you might want to talk to her sometime. So yeah, so that's sort of the how worldview, I think, connects to this. If you look at the 40 worldview precepts you know on the right side, everything from self-hypnosis to non-authoritarianism, really will show how, I think naturally, those of us who we remember this connection and this interconnectedness with nature, I think we tend to be self-directed.

08:00 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I think there is a huge longing for some coming back to the original worldview, to a connectedness and the non-dualistic way of understanding or being in this world. And I'm just wondering, I think maybe a lot of people would almost give up, would think I'm too far away from that. I don't have a place-based lifestyle. I live in a city, in an apartment, I go to work, my kids are in school. I mean, is there any way you think would be a good? I mean, I have a lot of very radical people in my life. There are lots of people living in a quote-unquote different way and they are closer to maybe walking barefoot and doing meditations under the full moon and trying to get back to something you might call more real. But is there something we could say to those who almost feel, yeah, that's all good and fine, but there is no path for me?

09:17 - Four Arrows (Guest)
Yeah, I think it's a very good question and one I bump into very often. I don't have a and this may discourage you and your audience. I don't have a lot of hope that we're going to be able to turn things around. I said that when I was at UBC talking not long ago and I said it at the 76th General Assembly to the United Nations a few months ago. I said I think we need to redefine hope, and this might be an example of the self-directedness. I define hope not as a certainty or an expectation that things will turn out all right. It's a certainty that whatever you're doing is the right thing to do, regardless of how they turn out.

If we take that idea of hope and we couple it with the idea that we are spirits in a body and that our spirits have a continuation I mean the work at the University of Virginia's Perceptual Studies has been called by a Nobel scientist and quantum physics some of the best research around. I had a near-death experience, so I have personal experience with it. If we understand this and we have this sense of hope and we look at the world view, the foundational world view that reconnects us to nature, then I tell people you know, you walk down the streets of New York City and you look at the concrete and see how many weeds are growing up through that and stop for a moment and contemplate on the wisdom and sentience and strength of that weed growing up through concrete. Look at the trees that are around and look at the pigeons and see how they're living and find that one star in the night on the top of a roof some night.

You know that you might be able to see through the light and then but practice these world view precepts, do ceremony If you can get a chance to you know, to have pets or get into nature. You know these are starts but realize wherever you are, then in essence you are part of nature and that the glass and the concrete is maybe convenient, maybe it has some positive and some negative qualities you can look at. It doesn't change that as a spirit we are part of nature and of course then the responsibility that comes with that. So it's a great question, but that's over the 40 years I've been doing this work. It's only been in the last seven or eight years where people haven't had that fear that you're talking about or that frustration or that it's not. For me it's impossible, and I think that's because we've gotten to a point where nothing else is working and things are getting so despairing. People are starting to say maybe it is the foundation of our assumptions, our uninvestigated assumptions, and so I'm a big believer in self-hypnosis, not heterohypnosis.

I taught hypnosis at UC Berkeley for MFCC licensure. I've written a couple of books on it. One just came out on hypnotic communication for medical emergencies and I stopped it many years ago in Marin County, california when I realized the dependency of paying me $300 to hypnotize someone when really all hypnosis is self-hypnosis can be learned easily. I had my appendix taken out with self-hypnosis, and so trans-based learning has always been a part of our ancestors' traditions. If we go back far enough, that's what ceremony is when I went into the lodge last night the dark blogs, the drumming, the singing and the intentionality.

All hypnosis is believing in an image deeply in a lower brainwave frequency for an automatic response in your autonomic nervous system and otherwise for a transformative experience, and so that's one of the couple of the precepts related to trans-based learning, to humor, to self-d it's a lot of things that you guys especially because you're specialists in this if you looked at the world, you try, you go wow. That actually relates to self-directed people. I would love to see a project maybe we can do it together someday but a project that looks at people who are self-directed, how many of them are leaning into our indigenous side of that chart, and I think that would be a great study for one of my doctoral students. I'll mention it when the next one comes up.

14:03 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Yeah, that's interesting, it really is.

14:09 - Four Arrows (Guest)
I have several doctoral students now that are trying to experiment with how to use it. In fact, the Veterans for Peace has asked me last year ago, after I did a keynote there, to show them how to use the worldview chart. Now many of the chapters and these are mostly gray hair, white men and they are starting their meetings by looking at the chart and saying, okay, we want a project, we're going to choose. Are we choosing it from this perspective or from this perspective? What can we do better? But it's still up in the air, because this is relatively new is how do people use a metacognitive reflection and self-hypnosis?

14:53 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
to do this.

14:56 - Four Arrows (Guest)
One of the ways came to me in an near-death experience on the Rio Ulrich trying to kayak down. Your readers can just go onto YouTube and if they put in the shamans message, there goes parts one, two and three. You got to use all that to get it. Otherwise a whole bunch of things on the shamans. I will put a link in the show notes folder.

15:18 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
You find a link and put it in the notes.

15:20 - Four Arrows (Guest)
What happened is and I won't go through the long story of the mountain lion and the out-rumory people saving us and all that, but out of it came a vision of a cat, cat and a fawn. F-a-w-n. And those letters all of a sudden merged from where they were in the reality of deep and copper canyon in Mexico to neon signs in New York City. Speaking of cities, I did. And anyway, long story short cat is self-hypnosis. Fawn activated transformation. It's something that we can learn to use all the time. Then fawn are four important examples of worldview precepts that we can use to start using the hypnosis, not only to find out why we believe what we believe, why are we afraid of this. We can use regression, self-hypnosis to see oh, uncle Charlie, when I was four years old you told me that it's dangerous to be in that river, and so fear.

Fawn is fear, authority, words and nature. And in the indigenous worldview, those four ideas or concepts are almost 180 degrees different than the average common colonial approach to those things. So, with looking at, well, how can I change? And then what's the issue? How does that relate to fears I have and where those fears come from? On whose authority am I doing this, which is a big part of your work Fear, authority, words, words are sacred vibrations and I wrote a whole book called the Bums Rush the Selling of Environmental Backlass Phrases and Fialices of Rush Lumbaugh, because he uses hypnotic language and it was so successful.

It was his book and Fox News that essentially created the idea of denying climate change. So words are powerful. And then the last one is that we are part of nature. You look, in most dictionaries the word nature says everything except humans and what they make. So I think the catfond work and I've done instructions with that. That's something people can use. And then I just had an article published in the Review of General Psychology, a 45,000 page, very peer reviewed, 14 revisions, but it was published and it's got a lot of hits now on how to decolonize Western psychology and some of these things are being brought into that. And I talk about how to use catfond in ways that really empower the other, if you are going to have that.

18:28 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
So for us sometimes when I'm thinking about Indigenous worldview and people talking about it also because I was the interim CEO of Gaia Education and a lot of the people we worked with was people living in eco villages, so I would talk myself into a question. So bear with me. So the people I saw there, they were, you can say, far out compared to people living in the city going to a daytime job. We talk about people trying to live in harmony with nature, growing their own food and all these things, and it relates a little back to what Cecilia said. So, yeah, what am I talking myself into is, if we are to change the world that was one of the things I saw when I sat in this position was I believe it would be very difficult to get everybody to live in eco-villages.

19:31 - Four Arrows (Guest)

19:32 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Impossible, totally impossible, and that was what Gaia education was selling with us like here's an educational how you can create an eco-village. And I tried to turn them in a direction where I said this is not possible. But I still believe we need the outliers, the people who are how, walking in the distance, how it can be done. But I'm sometimes lacking the work of saying how can we draw from this and use it in everyday modern life, because I believe that more than 90% I don't know the percentage, but super many people will still prefer to live in the modern world somehow. So, and how is it we can draw from this?

20:16 - Four Arrows (Guest)
Yeah, a couple of things. First of all, not most intentional communities fail within 10 years. Yeah, now there's a few. There's one eco-village in British Columbia that is a beautiful model and has been successful and I'm working, I've worked with them and I'm going to be working more with them, and so and it's amazing because it really is changing the policies of the cities around about gray water and things like this, so it's really, it's engaged with others, it's not an escapism.

I think that we have to look at if there's going to be an ultimate transformation back into balance, that the extremes are not going to be representative. I'm an extreme and I'm not a representative. I mean, I'm 77 and I'm out surfing and I just got back from a two hour bike ride and I'm you know, I'm junk, I'm learning to juggle and I, you know, I mean I do a lot of extreme things, right, and I went when I ran the largest residential treatment program for troubled youth, I brought in animals for them to use, I took out all the coke machines and I put them on Oblecap, which is placebo, spelled backwards, because they were all on drugs, right, that's a radical thing to do and I've refused orders that I thought would hurt people and, you know, got fired for that, right. So we're not going to be modeled, right? No, what's the average person doing? And then how do we, with worldview reflection, how do we get them to have less of a reliance on the concept of convenience? How do we? How do we move them to be more compassionate for ants and cockroaches, snakes and birds? How do we move them to begin to understand how interconnected they are? How do we move them towards starting to look at the opposites instead of anger, moving in a direction of symbiosis and complementarity? How do we look at a conflict resolution, not in terms of punishment and revenge, but in terms of somehow bringing us back into community, if possible? And how do we start doing that?

And then looking at the health and vitality of our bodies. These were always primary. I just went and got some things over at a neighbor's house and I've been visiting them for a long time, but I never said how long have you lived here? And she gave me this story about how her husband and 10 siblings lived there and they all lived long lives, healthy, you know, and yeah, sure, that's kind of radical in that this is a very remote place and it's mostly wilderness. So maybe that's not a good example, but ultimately we're going to have to find ways to balance, and technology isn't going to get us there per se. I mean, technology has always been around. The corn was an indigenous technology.

Some people think it was never, but it was always about balance. What will this do to the balance? And if we start thinking in terms of balance, we'll make the changes, we'll choose the technologies, we'll start finding different ways to get along, and then the capitalism has to be addressed. Capitalism, like anthropocentrism, is killing us. I've written a chapter, a peer review chapter, in a book called Anselt. Pocentrism is Killing Us. But I haven't written one on capitalism because a lot of others have. And the military industrial complex that Eisenhower mentioned. You know what's happening in Palestine. I have a lot of personal friends there on both sides and it's insanity. And we're watching insanity on television and people won't talk about it because then you'll be accused of anti-Semitism. But for Eros, how do?

24:30 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
wewhat? What from the different indigenous worldviews could we draw from to bring balance? If we should get some ideas to people?

24:42 - Four Arrows (Guest)
You can't pick and choose like we do in the Bible.

24:45 - Jesper Conrad (Host)

24:46 - Four Arrows (Guest)
You can't do it.

Because worldview is all of these things, and I say that in the preface. We have to look at this. You know, you, somebody says, oh well, I'm going to become less hierarchical in my job and my work and I'm going to deal with that as an employer and a manager I'm going to be less hierarchical. But that's number one on the list. Number 40 on the list is high respect for women. All right. So let's say, this guy, because of his upbringing, you know, and everything, yeah, he's still. He's still pretty macho, pretty patriarchal and pretty. You know, think women are. Women are one wrong under us, right, there's no way he's going to do the first one until he also changes the 40th one. There's no way he's going to be less hierarchical if he's, if he has that feeling about women, right, so, so, so, so it's really it's. It's.

The worldview chart itself gives you the opportunities to self reflect on why I'm doing what I'm doing, why I'm afraid of this, why I'm not doing this, and from that then the real life experiences come. Like my daughter's ditch school it's subheading is all about counter hegemonic education. So if we don't know what hegemony is, if we don't know how the ruling elite are hypnotizing us to believe things so they don't have to hold a gun to our head. And then we're voluntarily. You know my, my doctoral students are taking course in counter hegemony. My first thing on the first night of the class I say I want everybody to tell me why, how all of us were taught about Helen Keller. And I bet I could ask the two of you the same question, right, how is how we were taught about Helen Keller? A classic example of educational hegemony. Nobody more self directed than Helen Keller.

And in American history I can name right. She was on Jay Iker Hoover's head list, one of the most dangerous women in America. She stood in Carnegie Hall speaking against World War One and entry into it. She was a member of the wobbly, the most radical labor union to protest against that. She was a socialist. On and on and on right and all the things that that we don't want people to do because they don't follow. You know, if we had people that knew the truth about Helen Keller, she probably wouldn't have gone into Iraq, right?

So so we've got to get to the fundamental assumptions that we make about life, that that were pre colonial or post colonial. You know, I don't. I, using indigenous is is problematic, as people you know think that, oh, there's, we're talking about a group here and I'm not talking about a group. In fact, most indigenous people have lost this and my, my Navajo students tell me 80% of the Navajo reservation now has totally lost this world view and lost the service, lost the, the whole thing, right, and, and you know, the Kogi still have it, but it's starting to get lost. The Robert Murray, simeron are struggling, you know. So this belongs to all this.

Until we get the world view back, we're not going to make the changes that us radicals are making Right, and and and and. So the radicals are doing it and and, yeah, sure, they can be a model, but not really, if you know what I'm saying, yeah, and so it's a great. Those are, those are really great questions and I hope, our dialogue. I am learning as I talk and you're learning, and I think that this is, you know, this is, this is crucial, but, but my bias, of course, as an educator, is the fundamental thing is is our essential understanding and beliefs about our relationship to nature and super nature. Essentially, you know, I mean, that's really the thing what do we, what do we believe and why do we believe it, and once we get there, then we start looking at religion. Well, it's okay, it's cool for social get together, but ultimately the evidence is against it. I mean, racism comes from Christian, western Christianity.

You know I've had the African American man named John Chenalt, who is the African head of racist studies at the University of Kentucky and he did a dissertation on it. When he speaks to my students, right, but you know so. So we start to change our institutions and the corporations. You know, yeah, it's great that some people are are now making rivers persons. There's a few countries that have done that, but we're a long, you know long way from many more doing that.

29:45 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)

29:46 - Four Arrows (Guest)
And that the idea that a corporation is a person is more ludicrous than that a river is a person.

29:55 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
For arrows. Let's try to also go in personal in the way where we maybe try to explore how you and we try to create a balance in life. You share a little about how you, with the knowledge and the world you, you have have a balancing to, to to get in this balance you're talking about.

30:25 - Four Arrows (Guest)
Well, you know, one of them is the fortune that we have. I go make a lot of money, but I do have a job, right, I'm a professor, and so we're able to choose where we live to some degree. Not a lot of people can do that, and you know, we choose to live 90 steps away from a beautiful, unpolluted beach and we're surrounded by five different kinds of wildcats and boa constrictors and crocodiles that are in the pond nearby. So we even chose in that, you know, being my wife and I and we've been married for 40 years. So, you know, I don't know that that's something that we can say, but you're just talking about me personally. Yeah, the you know, all my profits from all my 24 books have got that are relative to indigenous people I think there's only 18 of them, you know go to causes I don't need. I know what the concept of enoughness is for money and we live that way. So that's another factor, I guess.

So, the idea of helping others, the idea of not overdoing it I failed with that. I couldn't say no, and I wound up doing too much and I wound up with Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in 2008. And I managed to get back into my balance and it had a spontaneous remission in 2019, but then I lost it again in 2022. And it came back radically and it became stage four large B cell lymphoma. So I said, well, I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and go to the Western model now, which I had avoided. And I went to MD Anderson and I used hypnosis to memorize what the chemicals would do and instead of eight chemo sessions, I did three and did a lot of exercise where I didn't feel like it and you know, use the worldview, fearlessness of death, for example. And now I'm cancer-free and I'm back strong again. So I think you know I don't mean to keep you know so promoting the chart, you know that people can download it for free at.

32:53 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
You know at the website. We'll put a link to that one also. Yeah.

32:59 - Four Arrows (Guest)
Very good, yeah, and so I think it's really there's too many different ways of living to kind of really list them and learn from somebody else, and so I don't think a template works, because we're all different and we all have you know. But I think that there's different ways of manifesting the worldview, precepts that everybody can learn from, because we're all unique, and so the extremes of what I do, you know, would maybe be off-putting to somebody that, oh, I have to do all of that to be in balance.

You know, no, no, no. You know there's so many different ways and art and gardening, and but again, all the things that are reflected, that are the operational experiences that would happen if you were leaning more in this right hemisphere. Now, ian McGill-Crust I don't know if you know him, he's a very famous psychiatrist just wrote a 2,500 page book and I love that he did it. There's some things in it that are important about recognizing the problems that we have, but I'm so critical of it because you know he doesn't understand worldview at all and all he talks about is right and left brain hemispheres, and I think he might be right that this has happened, that he says we have completely lost the right brain and that the left brain is you know, and he's a psychiatrist, psychologist, scientist, you know, and so there's a lot of things.

I think it's a great metaphor, but I think I wrote a book called Critical Neurophilosophy in Indigenous Wisdom, where I criticize neuroscience because, as fantastic as it is, it can't get deep enough, it can't get into the unconscious of the spirit world and as a result, you know, it says things like there's no such thing as altruistic generosity because people gave money away in a monopoly game and it lit up a light that was the same light that lit up when you were selfish, right.

So I think it's complex. But if we begin to remember who we really are, that we are spirits in the body, that we are part of nature and that all of nature is our brother and our sister, and that if we can think about that, then go into a grocery store and buying the plastic wrapped cow that's been in a horrible, confined life. It just doesn't jide. So we start finding. So once that changes, then the things that are hypnotizing us into extinction they don't happen anymore because people are thinking in a different way and that's how the world's gonna change. I think Does that help a little bit.

36:04 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
It's amazing. It's amazing, and I think I mean at some points in this conversation it could sound like we might as well almost give up, but on the other hand, what I also hear you say, and what is my personal experience, is even a little step into the acknowledgement that person, foremost I am spirit and traveling in this body which is nature, in this amazing, amazing thing, nature really is around us. If I shift to that mindset just for 10 minutes a day, everything starts to be a little bit better.

36:44 - Four Arrows (Guest)
You're giving me goosebumps without you saying it. I got them all over my arm. In fact, if I could close with just a short little fluke, it would put an underline with what you just said and what it is. It's on the trail of tears where the Cherokee were forced out of Georgia and the Carolinas by the president, andrew Jackson, even though the Supreme Court had found against it to say no, they have the right to stay there. They were at gunpoint, forced, and a third of my people were, you know, died, and many were. It was a horrible, you know, 1500 mile march. But imagine this.

The women and of course, most 78% of all our pre-contact cultures were matriarchal and I could talk about that for a long time and why that is. But the women on this trail of tears were single lullaby to the children. If the child had lost the mother, that there would be someone else. But the song did what you were saying. The song said yeah. It didn't say yeah, this is tough, that was a given.

But it said but did you see the animals in the clouds? And did you see the clouds? They're still keeping the responsibility and giving us water. Did you see the dancing grasses in the prairie and how they're feeding the four-legged who are feeding us? And did you see the beautiful colors of the fish and how beautiful they are and how they're keeping that river clean? And did you hear the mockingbird song and how it's taught us to sing? And you know it went on like that right, and I think seeing the beauty in the world in a situation as horrendous as that has a comparable thing to what you're saying about what we can do now. So when you're ready, I'll just play the melody and people can just remember that. Imagine a woman singing that song.

38:42 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I think we should end with that.

38:44 - Four Arrows (Guest)

38:45 - Jesper Conrad (Host)

38:46 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
And then the very long thing about matriarchy and the original cultures. Could be a second podcast at some point, if you're willing, that will be an interesting one. Yeah, so you wanna hear it now.

38:58 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I would love to hear a song.

39:01 - Four Arrows (Guest)
Yeah, that's a fun one and I learned a lot from it, you know.

39:07 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
But would you play a song for us? Did I understand that right, and could that be a way to end the podcast?

39:13 - Four Arrows (Guest)
I can play it now if you want.

39:15 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, I think that would be a wonderful, beautiful way to end the podcast for today.

39:19 - Four Arrows (Guest)
All right, great, here we go. We're halfway, thank you. Thank you, what a wonderful way to end the podcast. Thanks a lot for you being here with us today. Thank you for listening.

40:33 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
We hope you enjoyed today's episode and if you liked them, then please share it with all your friends and family. We would also love it if you gave our podcast a review. We hope you enjoyed it. We'll see you in the next one. Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.


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